Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is?

[ISeeYou]

Okay, I need some help here, Im not good at geography, but I want to get a handle on something here

I asked on the Babylon thread this,

While you are both here discussing something I have question on Arabia (or which Arabia) has to do with Hagar answering to Jerusalem that now is as Paul points out.

Can any give me a hand there, I stink at Geography and math equally so if any can throw me a bone that would be great.

Exodus 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Duet 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Allegorically Paul says,

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But would allegorically speaking be equal to literally speaking? Is that the word Im looking for? Given the next verse

But then there is this one,

Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me;but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

So Im still stuck, what Arabia, anyone know?

Or should I just open another thread?

So I opened up a thread, because we know that the place where our Lord was crucified is also spiritually called "Sodom Egypt", then theres this allegory Paul shows in Hagar who represents one of the two covenants in the two women there with Abraham and Paul shows Hagar as mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that then was.

Which Arabia, because there is disputing between Jerusalem being Babylon and Saudia Arabia being Babylon, and I cannot tell which Arabia this is speaking of because those two seem as if together as one in this picture (allegorically speaking) but not so much when looking at Gal 1:17 when it comes to Pauls literal journeyings, see what I mean?

Like one is literally speaking, the other allegically speaking, and the one in Rev is spiritually called something (as in locations) as they pertain to Jerusalem, but its Pauls words here which are making e look at this a little closer.

Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me;but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Since I stink at geography (whether its carnally speaking or spiritually speaking) I need some help, what Arabia here? Not Saudia correct? Or no?

 

[oldhermit]

Okay, I need some help here, Im not good at geography, but I want to get a handle on something here

I asked on the Babylon thread this,



Exodus 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Duet 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Allegorically Paul says,

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But would allegorically speaking be equal to literally speaking? Is that the word Im looking for? Given the next verse

In the first century AD Arabia extended from the Persian Gulf to the Nile Delta, thus including the Sinai Peninsula in Arabia. Paul was quite correct in placing Mt. Sinai in the Sinai Peninsula because the Sinai Peninsula was part of Arabia of his day. This was not so in the time of Moses.

 

[ISeeYou]

In the first century AD Arabia extended from the Persian Gulf to the Nile Delta, thus including the Sinai Peninsula in Arabia. Paul would be perfectly correct in placing Mt. Sinai in the Sinai Peninsula because the Sinai Peninsula was part of Arabia of his day. This was not so in the time of Moses.

But I didnt see where Paul put it there though, what am I missing?

If Agar (in Abraham) is Mount Sinai in Arabia, where is that speaking of according to the allegory? Why is that important for us to know in a contrast of Jerusalem which is from below (to that which is above)?

Also, what of BC rather then AD?

 

[Elin]

Okay, I need some help here, Im not good at geography, but I want to get a handle on something here

I asked on the Babylon thread this,

Exodus 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Duet 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Allegorically Paul says,

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But would allegorically speaking be equal to literally speaking? Is that the word Im looking for? Given the next verse

In the first century AD Arabia extended from the Persian Gulf to the Nile Delta, thus including the Sinai Peninsula in Arabia. Paul was quite correct in placing Mt. Sinai in the Sinai Peninsula because the Sinai Peninsula was part of Arabia of his day. This was not so in the time of Moses.

Paul is using the literal Arabia of his day in an allegory (alligoriously) of Agar.

 

[Angela53510]

First, the location of Mt. Sinai is unknown. Just some speculations as to the possible location. I believe God wanted it to be lost, so a cult of worship would not spring up around the site. Of course, in Biblical days, they knew the location, but it has been lost since then. Probably on the Sinai pennisula, although I have seen some evidence for a site along the Gulf of Aqabah.

Second, it is great you are wanting to know the geography of the Near East. I read my Bible for 25 years, and would just skip over the locations as unimportant, when reading and studying, which is odd, because my undergrad degree is in geography. I should have cared.

My suggestion is you get a good Bible atlas, preferably an historical one. That will trace all the place names and put them into perspective with the times, the kings, the prophets etc.

We used the Holman's Bible Atlas in Seminary, and it was very colourfull and readable, but also lots of facts, charts, pictures and using the Bible to place things. Here is a link to buy it.

http://www.amazon.ca/Holman-Bible-Atlas-Expansive-Geography/dp/1558197095

If the cost is prohibitive, then Bible maps at the back of a study Bible might help, or just google what you need. I put together a year course for our Ladies Morning Bible study based on the Holman's Atlas, and I also supported it with a lot of internet info.

I highly recommend everyone study the geography of the Bible, as it adds so much understanding to the text. God created thes places for a reason, and every event in the Bible occurred somewhere! So all the more reason to know where and why!

 

[ISeeYou]

Paul is using the literal Arabia of his day in an allegory (alligoriously) of Agar.

Elin what am I missing here though, look at this one...

Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me;but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

And then this one...

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

In the first he appears to make them separate or different?

But in the second he seems to put them more together or no?

Im lost on this one, can you tell?

 

[oldhermit]

But I didnt see where Paul put it there though, what am I missing?

If Agar (in Abraham) is Mount Sinai in Arabia, where is that speaking of according to the allegory? Why is that important for us to know in a contrast of Jerusalem which is from below (to that which is above)?

Also, what of BC rather then AD?

Maybe I am not getting the full gist of you question. Geographically, In the days of Moses, the Sinai Peninsula was not part of Arabia. Contrary to popular opinion Mt Sinai was in the Sinai Peninsula, not in Midian. In Gal 4:25 Paul is presenting a philosophical argument that equates Hagar with the Old Covenant (Sinai). Jerusalem of old was a part of that Old Covenant. This does not suggest that Jerusalem was geographically located in Sinai.

 

[ISeeYou]

First, the location of Mt. Sinai is unknown. Just some speculations as to the possible location. I believe God wanted it to be lost, so a cult of worship would not spring up around the site. Of course, in Biblical days, they knew the location, but it has been lost since then. Probably on the Sinai pennisula, although I have seen some evidence for a site along the Gulf of Aqabah.

Second, it is great you are wanting to know the geography of the Near East. I read my Bible for 25 years, and would just skip over the locations as unimportant, when reading and studying, which is odd, because my undergrad degree is in geography. I should have cared.

My suggestion is you get a good Bible atlas, preferably an historical one. That will trace all the place names and put them into perspective with the times, the kings, the prophets etc.

We used the Holman's Bible Atlas in Seminary, and it was very colourfull and readable, but also lots of facts, charts, pictures and using the Bible to place things. Here is a link to buy it.

http://www.amazon.ca/Holman-Bible-Atlas-Expansive-Geography/dp/1558197095

If the cost is prohibitive, then Bible maps at the back of a study Bible might help, or just google what you need. I put together a year course for our Ladies Morning Bible study based on the Holman's Atlas, and I also supported it with a lot of internet info.

I highly recommend everyone study the geography of the Bible, as it adds so much understanding to the text. God created thes places for a reason, and every event in the Bible occurred somewhere! So all the more reason to know where and why!

Yeah, I do understand no one knows the location in one sense of asking about it.

And Ive always detested anything with math and geography LOL I am so weak in those areas I am pathetic, I love the allegorical but once any of those two encroach into that territory Im like resentful its there, like, if that wasnt there I would "get it" faster! LOL

I'll keep that in mind (that book). I just wanted to understand better why Paul needed to throw that in, he was speaking allegorically so I dont necessarily feel knowing where it is exactly on a map is that important but more like why is this is importantr for our knowledge in the way it speaks I guess.

Thanks Angela53510

 

[ISeeYou]

Maybe I am not getting the full gist of you question. Geographically, In the days of Moses, the Sinai Peninsula was not part of Arabia. Contrary to popular opinion Mt Sinai was in the Sinai Peninsula, not in Midian. In Gal 4:25 Paul is presenting a philosophical argument that equates Hagar with the Old Covenant (Sinai). Jerusalem of old was a part of that Old Covenant. This does not suggest that Jerusalem was geographically located in Sinai.

Thats better oldhermit, this Arabia thing was irking me.

Its not you, I can be very fustrating to speak with concerning math and this (especially in the allegorial) its like I cant wrap my brain around its importance of it or something.

I will soon start loosing my whole point in even asking, it just happens every time LOL

Thanks,

 

[secularhermit]

Yeah, I do understand no one knows the location in one sense of asking about it.

And Ive always detested anything with math and geography LOL I am so weak in those areas I am pathetic, I love the allegorical but once any of those two encroach into that territory Im like resentful its there, like, if that wasnt there I would "get it" faster! LOL

I'll keep that in mind (that book). I just wanted to understand better why Paul needed to throw that in, he was speaking allegorically so I dont necessarily feel knowing where it is exactly on a map is that important but more like why is this is importantr for our knowledge in the way it speaks I guess.

Thanks Angela53510

Just in case it be needed: Google Earth

 

[oldhermit]

Thats better oldhermit, this Arabia thing was irking me.

Its not you, I can be very fustrating to speak with concerning math and this (especially in the allegorial) its like I cant wrap my brain around its importance of it or something.

I will soon start loosing my whole point in even asking, it just happens every time LOL

Thanks,

I certainly understand. The Bible is full of allegories and if one is unfamiliar with the history and meaning of the representaional figure that serves as a basis for the allegory it is very easy to get confused.

 

[Elin]

Elin what am I missing here though, look at this one...

Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me;but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

And then this one...

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

In the first he appears to make them separate or different?

But in the second he seems to put them more together or no?

Im lost on this one, can you tell?

He is saying that, in his allegory

Abraham's wife Hagar (slave) = Mt. Sinai = Sinaitc Covenant = earthly Jerusalem in slavery to the law with her children,

and

Abraham's wife Sarah (free woman) = new covenant = free heavenly Jerusalem, our mother,
who bears children that are free from slavery to the law.

 

[secularhermit]

Okay, I need some help here, Im not good at geography, but I want to get a handle on something here

I asked on the Babylon thread this,



Exodus 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Duet 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Allegorically Paul says,

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But would allegorically speaking be equal to literally speaking? Is that the word Im looking for? Given the next verse



So I opened up a thread, because we know that the place where our Lord was crucified is also spiritually called "Sodom Egypt", then theres this allegory Paul shows in Hagar who represents one of the two covenants in the two women there with Abraham and Paul shows Hagar as mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that then was.

Which Arabia, because there is disputing between Jerusalem being Babylon and Saudia Arabia being Babylon, and I cannot tell which Arabia this is speaking of because those two seem as if together as one in this picture (allegorically speaking) but not so much when looking at Gal 1:17 when it comes to Pauls literal journeyings, see what I mean?

Like one is literally speaking, the other allegically speaking, and the one in Rev is spiritually called something (as in locations) as they pertain to Jerusalem, but its Pauls words here which are making e look at this a little closer.

Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me;but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Since I stink at geography (whether its carnally speaking or spiritually speaking) I need some help, what Arabia here? Not Saudia correct? Or no?

A free download of e-sword resources may help you?

 

[ISeeYou]

He is saying that, in his allegory

Hagar (slave) = Mt. Sinai = Sinaitc Covenant = earthly Jerusalem in slavery to the law with her children,

and

Sarah (free woman) = new covenant = free heavenly Jerusalem, our mother,
who bears children that are free from slavery to the law.

Okay, thank you Elin, this is how I was understanding it without this Arabia mentioned coming into the picture.

Paul brings that into the allegory but separates it out of his travels when he makes mention of where he was going bewteen the two (which could simply mean the location lines in time have moved) but doesnt change anything really.

I just wasnt getting why Arabia was thrown in there (its importance, whether in the past, or forward as in Pauls day).

On the one thread they were going back and forth a bit on Babylon (and who that is) and so as one was speaking of Arabia (as I heard it) to be speaking moreso in respects to Muslims (in Saudia Arabia) verses that which is discerned as Jerusalem (pertaining to the Sinaitic covenant, as you put it).

Whereas folks talking Ishmeal of Agar (today) of Arabia seem to be speaking of this Muslims/ ISIS stuff (against the true Jews) of Jerusalem (over in the physical location of Jerusalem (if you know what I mean?)

And so on one level (according to how scripture better defines it) I am looking in at this conversation thinking, they seem to be talking past one another. With the one saying, "No, its Arabia" and the other saying, No its Jerusalem, when Agar is both (according to that particular covenant).

That was why I asked.

I betcha I made things worse saying all of that huh?

I wasnt as gifted as Elin in being so articulate in things

You put that well by the way sis

 

[4enlightment]

Okay, I need some help here, Im not good at geography, but I want to get a handle on something here

I asked on the Babylon thread this,



Exodus 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Duet 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Allegorically Paul says,

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But would allegorically speaking be equal to literally speaking? Is that the word Im looking for? Given the next verse



So I opened up a thread, because we know that the place where our Lord was crucified is also spiritually called "Sodom Egypt", then theres this allegory Paul shows in Hagar who represents one of the two covenants in the two women there with Abraham and Paul shows Hagar as mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that then was.

Which Arabia, because there is disputing between Jerusalem being Babylon and Saudia Arabia being Babylon, and I cannot tell which Arabia this is speaking of because those two seem as if together as one in this picture (allegorically speaking) but not so much when looking at Gal 1:17 when it comes to Pauls literal journeyings, see what I mean?

Like one is literally speaking, the other allegically speaking, and the one in Rev is spiritually called something (as in locations) as they pertain to Jerusalem, but its Pauls words here which are making e look at this a little closer.

Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me;but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Since I stink at geography (whether its carnally speaking or spiritually speaking) I need some help, what Arabia here? Not Saudia correct? Or no?

Mt. Sinai Found

 

[ISeeYou]

Hey thanks, apreciate the map, hubby wants a grilled cheese back its all good, no more questions, more likely questions a for the first covenant people being the Muslims (as the Ishmaels) in Arabia verses that which pertains to Jerusalem (from below) under that. Because that even seems as if that place is being usurped.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The allegory is not a geography lesson, nor does it speak of physical things but spiritual things.

Galatians 4:22-29[SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

This allegory speaks of the 2 spiritual seeds (2 sons) The first was born of the flesh, the other was born again from above by the Holy Spirit. The children of the bondwoman are in bondage to sin.

It also speaks of 2 Covenants (one earthly, the other heavenly)
It also speaks of 2 spiritual Jerusalem's (one earthly, one heavenly)

Arabia means "desert,desolation, barren" This speaks of the children of the curse, without fruit, without understanding, carnally minded."

 

[Sophia]

I had a hard time understanding the question, but I think what you are wondering is:
If Paul says Mt Sinai is in Arabia, and then says that Hagar(Ishmael) is Mt Sinai and also Jerusalem, then is Jerusalem in Arabia?

I think what Paul was not giving geography, but saying that those still under the letter of the Law (unsaved Jews, represented by earthly Jerusalem) are the same as Ishmaelites (Arabs) in a spiritual sense. They both have the same false religion, and false god... salvation by works of law.

 

[ISeeYou]

The allegory is not a geography lesson, nor does it speak of physical things but spiritual things.

Galatians 4:22-29[SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

This allegory speaks of the 2 spiritual seeds (2 sons) The first was born of the flesh, the other was born again from above by the Holy Spirit. The children of the bondwoman are in bondage to sin.

It also speaks of 2 Covenants (one earthly, the other heavenly)
It also speaks of 2 spiritual Jerusalem's (one earthly, one heavenly)

Arabia means "desert,desolation, barren" This speaks of the children of the curse, without fruit, without understanding, carnally minded."

Thanks I do get its not of longitudes and latitudes on maps, and thats its allegorical, I was interested in Arabia.

That part bugs me (for me, in making a better connection), it just will, why doesnt it mention the connection that can be made back in the OT though?

 

[Sophia]

Thanks I do get its not of longitudes and latitudes on maps, and thats its allegorical, I was interested in Arabia.

That part bugs me (for me, in making a better connection), it just will, why doesnt it mention the connection that can be made back in the OT though?

What connection are you referring to? The location of Mt Sinai, or the how Mt Sinai represents the Law.