Age of Accountability
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I don't agree. I was saved when I was 20. The Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin. I knew that I would face God as my judge and I would be excluded from heaven.
I do not know how old I was exactly, but it was about 11 or 12 when I reached the age of accountability. It was also when I realised that my father was not infallible and he did not know everything.
I do not know how old I was exactly, but it was about 11 or 12 when I reached the age of accountability. It was also when I realised that my father was not infallible and he did not know everything.
moral free will and God's Word
Before A&E ate the forbidden fruit, their knowledge of right and wrong was theoretical,
and after/as they sinned, their moral knowledge became experiential.
The essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is MFW, which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27).
MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (Deut. 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (Luke 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (Gen. 3:24, Rev. 22:1-2)
God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (Gen. 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1John 3:8) and humanity (Rom. 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/GW.
Before A&E ate the forbidden fruit, their knowledge of right and wrong was theoretical,
and after/as they sinned, their moral knowledge became experiential.
The essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is MFW, which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27).
MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (Deut. 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (Luke 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (Gen. 3:24, Rev. 22:1-2)
God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (Gen. 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1John 3:8) and humanity (Rom. 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/GW.
Those that have truly repented God knows and that person personally knows, each person is accountable to the self between God and them each. To think I am accountable for others reactions and actions is a lie from evil, thanks. Every person knows whether in or not with Father and Son or not and religion promotes doubt, to gain control as did before Jesus ever showed up to reveal their sin, the Pharisees, not fair, you see, thank you
Romans 8:12-17
Romans 8:12-17
The law is still in place for the "Unbelievers" not for those that believe God. Those that are sincere in belief to God, learn new daily and quit those things that are not good for their souls
Such as drinking, carousing, carrying on in drugs and Debauchery
I know, my old flesh did all those things and God continued to love me in God's mercy and truth. which got me to see this amazing grace given me. So I willingly quit those things, not ever having too, chose to and did by God for me. Not a brag, a fact, in thanksgiving and praise to trusting God not myself anymore
Such as drinking, carousing, carrying on in drugs and Debauchery
I know, my old flesh did all those things and God continued to love me in God's mercy and truth. which got me to see this amazing grace given me. So I willingly quit those things, not ever having too, chose to and did by God for me. Not a brag, a fact, in thanksgiving and praise to trusting God not myself anymore
Not true. God's command was clear. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, why were they afraid of God? Why did they try to cover up? Why did God evict them from Eden? Why did God curse the land they had to work on?
God warned Adam that disobedience would bring death. And so it was. Adam did not die physically, obviously. His soul likewise was still alive. But he was dead spiritually. And so were all his descendants. Unbelievers are called the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:1 & 2)
Eve was subject to deception, which is why Satan tempted her directly. It is obvious from the account that Adam was there with her at the same time. Adam willfully disobeyed God and the rest is history.
God warned Adam that disobedience would bring death. And so it was. Adam did not die physically, obviously. His soul likewise was still alive. But he was dead spiritually. And so were all his descendants. Unbelievers are called the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:1 & 2)
Eve was subject to deception, which is why Satan tempted her directly. It is obvious from the account that Adam was there with her at the same time. Adam willfully disobeyed God and the rest is history.
Can you explain this to me if you don't mind?
I'm asking you because you were one of the few who realized that the word 'saved' was a bit confusing for non-English speaking audiences perhaps, and the word 'how can we get into Heaven is more accurate'.
Because i don't understand what folks mean when they say "works" either. Do they mean the Jewish laws or do they mean that they need to stay in the couch without working and even using the keyboard.
So, how did Adam NOT die physically when he obviously died physically after 900+ years?
I'm asking you because you were one of the few who realized that the word 'saved' was a bit confusing for non-English speaking audiences perhaps, and the word 'how can we get into Heaven is more accurate'.
Because i don't understand what folks mean when they say "works" either. Do they mean the Jewish laws or do they mean that they need to stay in the couch without working and even using the keyboard.
So, how did Adam NOT die physically when he obviously died physically after 900+ years?
God said that Adam would die the moment he ate from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve did not die physically that day. As you say, physical death followed 900+ years later. But physical death was the consequence of spiritual death. And it is the same now. We are all dead in trespass and sin, but physically we live.
Why does this distinction matter? Because people need to know that they are spiritually dead to God. It's not just a matter of forgiveness. We need to be made alive once more! (Ephesians 2:1)
"Works" is anything we do in order to try to make ourselves right with God. Some make Bible study a work, prayer a work or church attendance - even all three. Christians need to realise that we are made right with God by what Jesus did on the cross. So we start from a position of being right with God. "Works" should be the result, the outworking of who are in Christ. Lord Jesus said, "Apart from me, you can do nothing."
Many Christians come up with good ideas, try to get them to happen and ask God to bless the work. Paul describes these things as flammable, that will be burned up (1 Corinthians 3:12 & 13). Our work needs to be instigated by Jesus and achieved by the power of the Holy Spirit, to the glory of God the Father.
The problem with self motivated works is boasting. It leads to pride. It's unfortunate that there are so many talented people who do not need God to empower them. I've learned that I can do nothing of any spiritual worth apart from Jesus. Yet I am active, because Jesus motivates me and enables me. I seek God's leading for my life. I have ideas, hopes and dreams, but I submit them all to God. I've had enough failure and defeat to make me wary of relying on myself.
Why does this distinction matter? Because people need to know that they are spiritually dead to God. It's not just a matter of forgiveness. We need to be made alive once more! (Ephesians 2:1)
"Works" is anything we do in order to try to make ourselves right with God. Some make Bible study a work, prayer a work or church attendance - even all three. Christians need to realise that we are made right with God by what Jesus did on the cross. So we start from a position of being right with God. "Works" should be the result, the outworking of who are in Christ. Lord Jesus said, "Apart from me, you can do nothing."
Many Christians come up with good ideas, try to get them to happen and ask God to bless the work. Paul describes these things as flammable, that will be burned up (1 Corinthians 3:12 & 13). Our work needs to be instigated by Jesus and achieved by the power of the Holy Spirit, to the glory of God the Father.
The problem with self motivated works is boasting. It leads to pride. It's unfortunate that there are so many talented people who do not need God to empower them. I've learned that I can do nothing of any spiritual worth apart from Jesus. Yet I am active, because Jesus motivates me and enables me. I seek God's leading for my life. I have ideas, hopes and dreams, but I submit them all to God. I've had enough failure and defeat to make me wary of relying on myself.
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I'm interested in seeing a verse that backs that up, especially it context, if you have one or more.
Again, verse and context please. Where it's true that new born infants do not rob banks nor steal toys from other children, the sin nature is still there, the only difference being that those sins are not held to their account before the age of 20 years, even though they later act out that nature more effectively once old enough to do so before they can even walk. If sin is not present, then how do you figure innocence into their makeup? How do you define innocence in relation to newborns and upward, apart from the fallacy of knowledge?
We may ask, why... Simply stated by many of our believing in Christ rabbis who are not so liberal, the Lord chose to apply the Blood of Christ to all before the age of 20, but after that, their excuses are effectively and reasonably removed. This sounds incredible and unbelievable to many who within themselves harbor inferior sentiments toward others and toward God who does indeed punish sinners with physical death, even those before the age of 20.
The powerful desire to claim it's about knowledge and understanding of sin, that makes for a great Shakespearean play upon emotions because it subjects God to human systems of conceived justice and prudence rather than to recognize the Sovereignty of God over His creation and His chosen bestowment of sin upon His own creation. Many professing believers like to think they have God figured out. Heck, even I am still learning as is true of us all.
The indicators from scripture, within their contexts, was presented, and so biblical presentation is far more effective than one-liners of denial and projections of what sound more akin to opinion than biblical hermeneutics. Therefore my reason for asking that you present something quoted from scripture, which is of far greater substance, and I thank you for that in advance if you have anything.
A strong argument that can be made is recognition for the origin of our sin:
Romans 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
This is a powerful statement by Paul. It dives deeply into the matrix of conceptual truths that many today reject on the basis of a strong desire that all of reality be subject unto them, including God and how He acts and reacts, as if He were subject unto stimuli. He is not from what we can read in scripture. He has indeed expressed repentance for having created man as an emotional reaction, yes, but the narrative of time was seen by Him from before creation ever was. He knew the fall would happen, and yet He intentionally placed into His creation the very elements that brought about what He knew was going to happen. He did not HAVE to place into the garden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but He did knowing full well what was going to happen. It all fell nicely into His plans, but He still expressed emotional dislike for some things, which only reveals a part of Him that's not so easily discerned from all else we see of His other words and actions. He's not fallen human. What's of note is His image upon Adam, which translated from Adam to us.
Blessings.
MM
Again, verse and context please. Where it's true that new born infants do not rob banks nor steal toys from other children, the sin nature is still there, the only difference being that those sins are not held to their account before the age of 20 years, even though they later act out that nature more effectively once old enough to do so before they can even walk. If sin is not present, then how do you figure innocence into their makeup? How do you define innocence in relation to newborns and upward, apart from the fallacy of knowledge?
We may ask, why... Simply stated by many of our believing in Christ rabbis who are not so liberal, the Lord chose to apply the Blood of Christ to all before the age of 20, but after that, their excuses are effectively and reasonably removed. This sounds incredible and unbelievable to many who within themselves harbor inferior sentiments toward others and toward God who does indeed punish sinners with physical death, even those before the age of 20.
The powerful desire to claim it's about knowledge and understanding of sin, that makes for a great Shakespearean play upon emotions because it subjects God to human systems of conceived justice and prudence rather than to recognize the Sovereignty of God over His creation and His chosen bestowment of sin upon His own creation. Many professing believers like to think they have God figured out. Heck, even I am still learning as is true of us all.
The indicators from scripture, within their contexts, was presented, and so biblical presentation is far more effective than one-liners of denial and projections of what sound more akin to opinion than biblical hermeneutics. Therefore my reason for asking that you present something quoted from scripture, which is of far greater substance, and I thank you for that in advance if you have anything.
A strong argument that can be made is recognition for the origin of our sin:
Romans 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
This is a powerful statement by Paul. It dives deeply into the matrix of conceptual truths that many today reject on the basis of a strong desire that all of reality be subject unto them, including God and how He acts and reacts, as if He were subject unto stimuli. He is not from what we can read in scripture. He has indeed expressed repentance for having created man as an emotional reaction, yes, but the narrative of time was seen by Him from before creation ever was. He knew the fall would happen, and yet He intentionally placed into His creation the very elements that brought about what He knew was going to happen. He did not HAVE to place into the garden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but He did knowing full well what was going to happen. It all fell nicely into His plans, but He still expressed emotional dislike for some things, which only reveals a part of Him that's not so easily discerned from all else we see of His other words and actions. He's not fallen human. What's of note is His image upon Adam, which translated from Adam to us.
Blessings.
MM