An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

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TheDivineWatermark

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Trying to force the word "firstfruit" from 1 Cor 15:23 into the "firstfruit" of Rev 14 is ridiculous.
That is not what I was saying.


I was saying Leviticus 23 has TWO distinct mentions of "firstfruit".

I was pointing out how James 1:18 says, "a KIND of firstfruit" (i.e. there is more than one KIND of "firstfruit").

I've stated in past posts (in threads where you also participated), that there is more than one "harvest" in Scripture and in nature (NOT that "harvest" IS "resurrection" or IS "rapture". Not saying that.)
One "harvest" connecting with a certain "firstfruit," whereas another "harvest" is connecting with a certain other "firstfruit".


I was saying, of "the 144,000" (in Rev14:4) where it calls them "firstfruit," that these ["144,000"] connect with the SECOND mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23... that of v.17 (pertaining to the "WHEAT" harvest); where it states "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"... (regarding which, I had said, THAT is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / US).

I said there is a "WHEAT" harvest (Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50), which is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement); I said also there is an EARLIER "harvest" which is harvested by means of "TOSSING UP INTO THE AIR" and "BLOWING away the chaff".




What I am NOT saying, is that 1Cor15:23 "Christ firstfruit" (or "firstfruit Christ") IS the one in Rev14:4 [/Lev23:17] re: "the 144,000" (as you incorrectly assumed me to be saying... apparently :whistle: ). NO!





[ ^ 1Cor15:23 "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER [/RANK]"]
 
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Where does the Scripture state "but the Saints are taken up a little before the.End of the tribulation period."
Peace
That’s how I see it from Rev 12 as the woman (all Gods people) is protected for the 31/2 year tribulation period and during this time the man child, (the remnant of the woman’s seed) is caught up to the throne being the 1st Resurrection this takes place as the woman is still on earth
 
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In the parable they are in fact physical virgins.
I’m not going to argue but I know what I know .....God is a spirit and when you’re born again it’s a spiritual birth you must hear and see the things of the spirit in that spiritual birth if you’re not born again you can’t see the spiritual things or hear the spiritual things you see the physical things as you’re speaking of
 
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That’s how I see it from Rev 12 as the woman (all Gods people) is protected for the 31/2 year tribulation period and during this time the man child, (the remnant of the woman’s seed) is caught up to the throne being the 1st Resurrection this takes place as the woman is still on earth
The man child is Jesus who was taken up to the Throne.
Satan now seeks the destruction of the Offspring/Remnant, who just happen to be those who keep the commandments and Testimony of Jesus = the Saints.

The only 'caught up' Person is the LORD Jesus Christ.

If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Jesus is speaking to you, if you have an ear to hear..........
 

RR

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Mar 13, 2022
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Please take one point at a time per post so as to make for pin point accuracy which you and I are both shooting for = think archery, one arrow at a time with our complete focus on the very Center of the target = Bullseye is the Goal = everytime.
I guess, we'll just have to agree to disagree!

RR
 
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All the virgins have lamps representing the word of God (Psalm 119:105, 2 Peter 1:19) and all of them are awakened by the announcement of the bridegroom’s presence outside the door
The beginning of sorrows


However, the foolish virgins have brought insufficient oil with them for their lamps. The oil is the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 6:1-3, 2 Cor. 1:21-22) and evidently the foolish virgins lack the same spirit of commitment as the wise virgins.
The foolish have CLAIMED to love God but don't go about following the commands given with to study and put on the gospel armor to withstand the fiery darts of Satan, EXTRA OIL, while the wise have


The foolish virgins experience difficulties when the bridegroom arrives at the house at the stroke of midnight (cf. Song of Solomon 5:2-7). Their lamps are sputtering from a lack of oil, which suggests they are having difficulty understanding everything happening at the time. They go to get more oil in the marketplace (the parallel in Revelation seven would be the great multitude going out into the great tribulation). While they are gone the bridegroom takes the wise virgins to the wedding feast and the door is closed to the foolish virgins.
The trib begins and sure enough before the end BEFORE THE RETURN OF CHRIST, the foolish virgins lose the battle and are deceived.

SO, when CHRIST returns and the foolish will not be a part of the alive and remaining as they are no longer 'virgins' and so not able to RECEIVE their immortality and rule and reign with Christ for the next 1000 years or Lords Day.



Note that throughout the parable they never cease to be virgins. They are genuinely loyal to Christ, but seem to lack the same degree or spirit (oil) of zeal and commitment that the wise virgins manifest, and they are shut out from going in to the wedding. So this parable suggests something different from the traditional view of the church… the understanding that all Christians are members of the bride of Christ. In the case of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, there are two “classes” of Christians… and not all of them are part of the bride and the wedding.
JUST because it doesn't SAY it RIGHT THERE, IT IS WRITTEN that 'going to buy and sell' is taking the mark of the beast and that is the worship of another god, which breaks the first commandment ALSO WRITTEN which makes them unfaithful (adultery/idolatry) and so no longer virgins but 'with child giving suck' which IS really BAD IF THE HUSBAND HAS BEEN AWAY FOR A FEW YEARS AND THE BABY IS A NEWBORN. So the foolish ARE CAST INTO THE DARKNESS, not a part of the church anymore. He never knew

What was the first warning? Do not be deceived by any man....Truth is GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED and if after 2000 years of teaching and putting us 'the first last and the last first' group with technology that makes TRUTH easier to find than has ever been possible, if we FAIL to heed the DIRECTIONS that is on us, not HIM.

THERE ARE TWO RELIGIONS GODS TRUTH AND ALL OTHERS.

WE DO IT HIS WAY OR WE ARE A PART OF THE ALL OTHERS.

WE BRING NO THOUGHTS OR IDEAS OF OUR OWN - CALL ME ABLE
OR
WE BRING OUR OWN THOUGHTS AND IDEAS INTO IT - CALL 'EM CAIN.


life or death. Could God have made it any easier?
That is not what I was saying.


I was saying Leviticus 23 has TWO distinct mentions of "firstfruit".

I was pointing out how James 1:18 says, "a KIND of firstfruit" (i.e. there is more than one KIND of "firstfruit").

I've stated in past posts (in threads where you also participated), that there is more than one "harvest" in Scripture and in nature (NOT that "harvest" IS "resurrection" or IS "rapture". Not saying that.)
One "harvest" connecting with a certain "firstfruit," whereas another "harvest" is connecting with a certain other "firstfruit".


I was saying, of "the 144,000" (in Rev14:4) where it calls them "firstfruit," that these ["144,000"] connect with the SECOND mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23... that of v.17 (pertaining to the "WHEAT" harvest); where it states "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"... (regarding which, I had said, THAT is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / US).

I said there is a "WHEAT" harvest (Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50), which is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement); I said also there is an EARLIER "harvest" which is harvested by means of "TOSSING UP INTO THE AIR" and "BLOWING away the chaff".




What I am NOT saying, is that 1Cor15:23 "Christ firstfruit" (or "firstfruit Christ") IS the one in Rev14:4 [/Lev23:17] re: "the 144,000" (as you incorrectly assumed me to be saying... apparently :whistle: ). NO!





[ ^ 1Cor15:23 "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER [/RANK]"]
You write about harvests taking place and relate this to people of the end times but what is written about Harvests in the end times doesn't match what you put forth as far as I can tell. Can you explain? I know I have asked this before but can't recall the answer. If you have I apologize for asking again. (maybe not asked of you) If you have a place with it all written out, that would be fine also. Thank you.


Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.





Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
 
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I guess, we'll just have to agree to disagree!

RR
QUESTION: What will you do with this Truth? Will you reexamine your synopsys so that it agrees with the Word?

Let's agree with the Word = Deut 4:1-2 , Prov 30:1-6 , Rev 22:18

Let's agree to be sanctified in Truth = John ch17 = we can agree on Truth = Thy word is Truth.

TRUTH = 2 Timothy 2:14-19
Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
18who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

The Truth is that JESUS is Coming for His Elect/Bride/Saints/Church and HE will leave no one behind just as we see here.

Can you find a directive from the LORD or the Apostles that the LORD will leave behind His Saints and then come back for them after the Resurrection?

I have a open heart, mind and spiritual ears to listen.
 

Rhomphaeam

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The problem with our perception here seems to be twofold.

  1. There is a lack of humility on our part. The idea of accepting your place in the world (Luke 14:7-11) is a lost principle in our society and to a large extent in the Christian church. We tend to place ourselves at the center of our world. Christians in the past were much more inclined to see themselves as parts of a larger whole. They were more likely to see themselves as essential parts of a community that was greater than their individual importance.
  2. We have a tendency to accept a secular view that equates a person’s role with their value or worth. This is not a biblical concept. The bible makes a clear distinction between someone’s position and whether that person is valued as an important part of the community. Take some time to read and ponder another passage, this one regarding the body of Christ in 1 Cor. 12:4-26 (and on through 1 Cor. 13:7).
So then, maybe we should ask… if these foolish virgins, this great multitude, doesn’t receive the same reward as the bride of Christ… what do they get? From Revelation 7:15-17 “…and He who sits on the throne shall spread His tabernacle over them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; neither shall the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them to springs of the waters of life; and God shall wipe every tear from their eyes.” Doesn’t sound like such a bad deal to me
To this from another age, brother.

“Behold, the Lord lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants. And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.” Is 24:2

Shalom
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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[Re: Rev12:5's "caught up [G726 - harpazo / hērpasthē ]"] The man child is Jesus who was taken up to the Throne.
[...]
The only 'caught up' Person is the LORD Jesus Christ.
Can you show us any OTHER passage (besides Rev12:5) where Scripture uses the word "G726 - harpazo / harpagēsometha / hērpasthē " [SNATCHED / RAPTURED / CAUGHT UP / CAUGHT AWAY]" to speak of Jesus' ascension / traveling up / going up to Heaven ??


[aren't you always the one calling for TWO witnesses in the Word?]




Where was Jesus shown to be "SNATCHED [G726]" to Heaven? What passage or passages (besides this Rev12:5 verse you say speaks of Him [alone])?
 
O

Oblio

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Whoever we are...whatever we are...is in our Lord's hands. As long as we spend eternity with Him, all else is superfluous!
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Can you show us any OTHER passage (besides Rev12:5) where Scripture uses the word "G726 - harpazo / harpagēsometha / hērpasthē " [SNATCHED / RAPTURED / CAUGHT UP / CAUGHT AWAY]" to speak of Jesus' ascension / traveling up / going up to Heaven ??

[aren't you always the one calling for TWO witnesses in the Word?]

Where was Jesus shown to be "SNATCHED [G726]" to Heaven? What passage or passages (besides this Rev12:5 verse you say speaks of Him [alone])?
Revelation ch12 was the topic at hand.
Revelation uses symbolism and repeating themes with emphasis on the number 7.
When the LORD speaks in a parable or symbolic form there is 'room' left for us to decipher based on what is already written.
ALL things, including Revelation, belong to the LORD and are only granted to us according to His Will corporately/Body and personally/individually = Luke 10:17-23

The two witnesses are the sanctified called out Saint(s) and the indwelling Holy Spirit = Acts ch1
God always has a Witness on earth, which is His chosen vessel(s) and the HS.

IMHO = Rev 11 are Enoch and Elijah as they were taken off the earth for this purpose.
The very same Tribulation is upon the earth when the return as when they left.
They do not escape Tribulation or Death = IMHO
 
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The 144k are not portrayed in a parable..
They are ethnic Jews as declared in the bible
No...Paul the Apostle made it clear that gentiles are grafted in as a Jew and here in Galatians 3

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And it’s out of these in Christ that are chosen as the 144,000 Holy ones they are both Jew and gentile, male and Female, bond or free.....
 
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ANSWER: I believe I have the Truth and my synopsis agrees with the Word!

RR
Love you Brother.

Pre-trib rapture is incompatible and in direct opposition of 2 Timothy 2:14-19 - this is a Red Flag that something is amiss.

You said: "They go to get more oil in the marketplace (the parallel in Revelation seven would be the great multitude going out into the great tribulation). While they are gone the bridegroom takes the wise virgins to the wedding feast and the door is closed to the foolish virgins."

There is no closed Door in in Revelation chapter 7
There is no wedding feast in Revelation ch7
There is no Resurrection in Revelation chapter 7
There is no rapture in Revelation chapter 7

Any synopsis that violates the Order given by the LORD in 1 Thess 4:13-18 must be vacated as it is in opposition to the Word.

Please find for us the scripture(s) where the LORD said HE will leave Saints behind and then come back for them AFTER His Coming and the Resurrection.

Thank You for your insight and the time well spent.
 
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ANSWER: I believe I have the Truth and my synopsis agrees with the Word!

RR
FYI - I did like your synopsis as it was well thought out and explained with clarity.

The Commandment for us is Truth and submission to the Truth.

We are not permitted to confirm our ideas as truth if they are in opposition to the teachings/doctrines of the LORD and the Apostles and the Prophets who have the final say as to Truth.

Therefore I urge you, brothers, on account of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God. - Romans 12:1-2
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Trying to force the word "firstfruit" from 1 Cor 15:23 into the "firstfruit" of Rev 14 is ridiculous.
That is not what I was saying.

I was saying Leviticus 23 has TWO distinct mentions of "firstfruit".
No, you mentioned Rev 14 along with 1 Cor 15:23.

And it doesn't matter. In the context of resurrection, Jesus was the first one to receive a glorified body, then followed "when He comes" and that will include all "those who belong to Him". That's every believer.

I was pointing out how James 1:18 says, "a KIND of firstfruit" (i.e. there is more than one KIND of "firstfruit").
Yes, of course there is. And there are DIFFERENT kinds of "first fruits". And they aren't related.

I've stated in past posts (in threads where you also participated), that there is more than one "harvest" in Scripture and in nature (NOT that "harvest" IS "resurrection" or IS "rapture". Not saying that.)
And not relevant to the issue of resurrection.

One "harvest" connecting with a certain "firstfruit," whereas another "harvest" is connecting with a certain other "firstfruit".
1 Cor 15:23 is specifically about resurrection and receiving a glorified body. NO other "firstfruit" and "harvest" is about that.

I was saying, of "the 144,000" (in Rev14:4) where it calls them "firstfruit," that these ["144,000"] connect with the SECOND mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23... that of v.17 (pertaining to the "WHEAT" harvest); where it states "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"... (regarding which, I had said, THAT is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / US).
This is very confused and confusing. I see no need to complicate the issue by Rev 14 or lev 23. All we need to understand the resurrection of believers is 1 Cor 15:23.

What I am NOT saying, is that 1Cor15:23 "Christ firstfruit" (or "firstfruit Christ") IS the one in Rev14:4 [/Lev23:17] re: "the 144,000" (as you incorrectly assumed me to be saying... apparently :whistle: ). NO!
It's been very difficult to follow your posts. It sure seemed to me that you were.

^ 1Cor15:23 "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER [/RANK]"]
So, boil this down to what your point is here, please.

btw, to keep using the words "order" and "rank" as co-equals or something is an error. It is clear from the subject in 1 Cor 15:23 that there are 2 resurrections where glorified bodies are involved:
1. the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
2. the resurrection of all saved people.

So you can leave "rank" out of this. Certainly among "those who belong to Him". All of them will receive their glorified bodies at the same event.
 
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The man child is Jesus who was taken up to the Throne.
Satan now seeks the destruction of the Offspring/Remnant, who just happen to be those who keep the commandments and Testimony of Jesus = the Saints.

The only 'caught up' Person is the LORD Jesus Christ.

If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Jesus is speaking to you, if you have an ear to hear..........
esus is speaking to you, if you have an ear to hear..........[/QUOTE

I do hear and see by the spirit....I am in the truth....my message comes from God not man.....you have learned what you say by Man....God is my witness and I am his witness...
 
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This applies to myself and everyone:

Hearing from God means you agree with God and align yourself with the Truth of His Word.

If you argue against scripture or twist scripture you are not hearing from God.

Therefore I urge you, brothers, on account of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God. - Romans 12:1-2
 

Rhomphaeam

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Revelation ch12 was the topic at hand.
και ετεκεν υιον αρρενα ος μελλει ποιμαινειν παντα τα εθνη εν ραβδω σιδηρα και ηρπασθη το τεκνον αυτης προς τον θεον και τον θρονον αυτου Revelation 12:5 Textus Receptus

και ηκουσα φωνην μεγαλην λεγουσαν εν τω ουρανω αρτι εγενετο η σωτηρια και η δυναμις και η βασιλεια του θεου ημων και η εξουσια του χριστου αυτου οτι κατεβληθη ο κατηγορος των αδελφων ημων ο κατηγορων αυτων ενωπιον του θεου ημων ημερας και νυκτος Revelation 12:10 Textus Receptus

Both of these Gk texts present the same conjugation to the object verb of either ἁρπάζω - harpazo (lexical root) manuscript ηρπασθη caught up (Revelation 12:5) - and βάλλω (lexical root) manuscript κατεβληθη cast down (Revelation 12:10).

Both verb forms are expressing an action of force or suddenness.

Revelation 12:4 is the man child and Revelation 12:10 is the Dragon.

It seems entirely reasonable that Satan should be cast down suddenly - seeing that at this point he is a defeated foe taken by force of Michael and his angels. Whereas to speak of Christ being caught up with sudden force may be suspect. The only reasonable test may be to read the account of the Lord’s ascension into heaven from the Gk manuscript.

και ταυτα ειπων βλεποντων αυτων επηρθη και νεφελη υπελαβεν αυτον απο των οφθαλμων αυτων. Acts 1:9 Textus Receptus

ὑψόω - hupsoo (lexical root) manuscript επηρθη lifted up. (Acts 1:9)
 

RR

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We are not permitted to confirm our ideas as truth if they are in opposition to the teachings/doctrines of the LORD and the Apostles and the Prophets who have the final say as to Truth.
Apparently, it seems MY ideas of Truth, are only in opposition to YOUR teachings/doctrines.

Let me ask you. Are my ideas so opposed to the Scriptures that it will affect my salvation?
 
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