Annihilationists confuse types related to eternal punishment with the reality

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Dec 12, 2013
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Names are used to represent attributes as authorities . Abraham represent our unseen father in heaven as the father of many nations called denominations or sects. .Jew and Gentile alike.

The Bosom of Abraham represents the unseen presence of God. It can be called the 3rd level of heaven.(not seen) The level of faith .The place of his hidden glory
Hahahahahahhahah wow man.....I bet you would put a down payment on the Brooklyn Bridge if one offered to sell it to you.....the above view goes well beyond ridiculous and borders on absurd.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Amen.......100% agree!
Did you notice that the rich man was neither without consciousness, nor did he mentioned he was in the process of being annihilated i.e. made non-existent?

Rhetorical question;)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Did you notice that the rich man was neither without consciousness, nor did he mentioned he was in the process of being annihilated i.e. made non-existent?

Rhetorical question;)
Obviously....and the beast and false prophet which are MEN are cast ALIVE into the lake of fire along with El Diablo and they are tormented DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER.....it is clear.........the problem stems from a lack of understanding of what being DEAD means and a rejection of numerous truths given plainly and or alluded to in scripture!!
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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If people would consider why God allows suffering, it would prove eternal suffering is untrue.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Obviously....and the beast and false prophet which are MEN are cast ALIVE into the lake of fire along with El Diablo and they are tormented DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER.....it is clear.........the problem stems from a lack of understanding of what being DEAD means and a rejection of numerous truths given plainly and or alluded to in scripture!!
God is subject to his own word. Two kinds of mercy. Mercy tempered with grace. And mercy a end to the living suffering of hell as the wrath of God being revealed daily. . . beginning in the garden when God corrupted this creation.

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

God is not merciless

The torment is the wrath of God being revealed from heaven.

You shall surely die. No breath called the spirit essence of life. . It clearly returned to that father just as the flesh to the dust.

Psalm 104:29Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

It has to do with corrupted creation . . dead people dying .Killed by the letter of the law. Thou shall surely die .Not thou shall suffer forever. . making God without mercy

Death "the letter of the law" will be cast in the judgment of God called fire . It will never rise and condemn a whole creation . Those who have not received a new born again Spirit that will never die. They will not be raised on the last day to receive their new incorruptible bodies.

Why would others desire God bring down fire on those he has not given grace to? Vengeance is of the Lord... not men

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what "manner of spirit" ye are of.LUke 9:54-55
 

Lightskin

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Aug 16, 2019
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God is subject to his own word. Two kinds of mercy. Mercy tempered with grace. And mercy a end to the living suffering of hell as the wrath of God being revealed daily. . . beginning in the garden when God corrupted this creation.
Please elaborate on the last nine words.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Please elaborate on the last nine words.
Thanks I can try.

Genesis 6:11-13 King James Version (KJV)The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

By reason of his brightness as a false glory called the morning star.

Unlike Christ. . . the bright, as the source of light and the reflection . The bright and morning star . He will be the light of the glory of God in the new creation . No more night as darkness to represent evil, not good

The serpent he cast him to the ground. . on you belly you will go to represent corruption . the word three is used throughout the bible to represent the end of the manner .

It would appear the timing . . . on you belly you will crawl taking away the ability to walk by faith as an action of God signals the turning on of the temporal light source the Sun and the moon as under the Sun or what the eyes see. Day four

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Genesis 1:14-19
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Did you notice that the rich man was neither without consciousness, nor did he mentioned he was in the process of being annihilated i.e. made non-existent?
Why would the rich man be in the process of being destroyed in the final judgment when the final judgment has yet to come at the end of this age following the resurrection and judgment of all? Sleep is not without consciousness either but it is not like being awake and aware as in our normal waking conscious state either, is it? People who pose such questions as you have do not seem to have thought through the implications of such questions. Claiming they are rhetorical does not hide this fact.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I would agree and offer to add

The soul seems to be the relationship of faith between two working as one. I use the term dead asleep .My teenage years. Or like the hibernation of a bear. The spirit, the essence of life.

Psalm 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

The bible defines the words used.

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead
.11;14
Thank you. Do you find it odd that people cannot distinguish between the first and second death? I do :geek: But perhaps again it is simply a deliberate pretense on their part to cloud an issue which in truth they do not understand. Scripture must harmonize, since it does not contradict the truth put forth. This is done line by line and precept by precept. Given all the Scriptures that say those not found in Christ will perish or be destroyed to the uttermost, it is not a stretch to believe that those not found in Christ's book of life pass out of life altogether.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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Did you notice that the rich man was neither without consciousness, nor did he mentioned he was in the process of being annihilated i.e. made non-existent?
Rhetorical question;)
His chaff deeds burning up first would harmonize that... given to the tormentors until the debt is paid to the last dime... divine retribution and recompense... and what afterwards? Well yeah, he's destroyed... because there is no life in the wicked servant that he should continue forever... otherwise "destroy both the body and soul in hell" and "the wages of sin is death" is made of no effect and he is never really blotted out or enemies of God destroyed.
Yet other bad trees keep being cast into the fire as there were many other people with the rich man... so the smoke of the torment keeps rising for ever and ever. Well, this is at least my idea so far. Might understand it better in time. But everything must agree together, not just one side of the story (torment going on and on), because there's also destruction.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Hahahahahahhahah wow man.....I bet you would put a down payment on the Brooklyn Bridge if one offered to sell it to you.....the above view goes well beyond ridiculous and borders on absurd.
LOL I don't need a bridge I need new windows and a roof.

Beyond your border or His the unseen third heaven ? What is the law that prevents a view that goes well beyond ridiculous and borders on absurd so men do not violate it?

Bosom of the Father is the unseen holy place of faith . . . the origin of visions and revelations of the Lord. Third heaven the hidden store house of faith

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

2 Corinthians 12:1-3 King James Version (KJV)It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

The place called hearing on high (not seen). Paradise

Faith from the 3rd heaven .The invisible place of God as the Bosum of Abraham,.

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.2
Chronicles 7

Faith towards in the 3rd heaven

And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive
1 King 8:30

What's your opinion of the third heaven?

 
Mar 28, 2016
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Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

I would suggest the penalty of death would be suffering the wages of hell a living death . Like with Jonas the belly of the whale (death) as in dying a person will surely die and not live.. The unbeliever suffers without the rest of Christ killed by the letter of the law.

You will Surely die. Not you will surely suffer forever with no rest. That would make God without mercy rather than enriching His mercy mixing it with grace

The wrath of God being revealed from heaven by reason of suffering The Son of man Jesus also by reason of suffering experienced hell as the Father poured out the wrath on Christ as he suffered "unto death" not dead. Jesus, like Jonas endured three days of suffering and being strengthened by the father to finish it Two working as one

Jonah 2:1-3 King James Version (KJV)Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

The believers as dying live as chastened but not killed .As new creatures are given a new spirit that will never die but will be raised on the last day

2 Corinthians 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

Not as in dying, and, behold we are dead. . . killed; That would apply to those who have no salvation rest in their suffering.
 
U

UnderGrace

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So just as the living soul is made when God breathes His spirit into a body, in reverse, when the ghost leaves the body, the living soul is no more.
Just focusing on this statement .... if the soul is no more upon death of the body what is there to annihilate?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I believe they do get blotted out, whatever the Scripture means by that. It seems to mean they will no longer exist. I doubt about matter being destroyed because matter is just a vessel... I believe their souls shall die, as wages for sin, and that their identity (names) will be wiped out so obliteration in that sense. This is unlikely to involve the matter. The matter "returns into dust", the body is destroyed by decomposition, rotting (worm). It's what the Bible seems to suggest.
Things to consider.....

Dust is matter, even fire changes matter to other molecules which disperse into the air, so again no annihilation can be inferred from fire if we are to glean spiritual truth from the physical nature of fire it would not be annihilation
Death is cessation of activity of the physical body, death can also mean inoperative
Death in context, according to the classical meaning of the word is also "separation" when referring to soul and spirit
No where has scripture shown that the dead are unconscious... Lazuras and the rich man demonstrate the opposite

This is where the scripture gets "flattened" by applying one semantic to all places

Do you think the soul is able to exist outside of the body?
If the soul is only material/matter as the atheists claim then we have a problem.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Things to consider.....

Dust is matter, even fire changes matter to other molecules which disperse into the air, so again no annihilation can be inferred from fire if we are to glean spiritual truth from the physical nature of fire it would not be annihilation
Death is cessation of activity of the physical body, death can also mean inoperative
Death in context, according to the classical meaning of the word is also "separation" when referring to soul and spirit
No where has scripture shown that the dead are unconscious... Lazuras and the rich man demonstrate the opposite

This is where the scripture gets "flattened" by applying one semantic to all places

Do you think the soul is able to exist outside of the body?
If the soul is only material/matter as the atheists claim then we have a problem.
The soul is the communicable source of two walking together in agreement, as one. The father and Son soul mates. God who is of one mind always does what his soul pleases .

Death is annihilation. And not after the idea of a phoenix that obtains new life by arising from the ashes of its predecessor. (reincarnation) The old thing will not be remembered or ever come to mind.

Can't find God under a microscope. He who is eternal Spirit is not known after a rudiment (molecules which disperse into the air,)of this word. That would represent a pagan foundation as tradition of men .

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Corruption brings annihilation. Corruption will no be clothed with the incorruptible as a wolf in sheep clothing. But an new creation all things new after different kind of molecules.

Eternal death never to rise to new life in respect to the book or letter of the law as that which kills it will be cast in the lake of fire .Never to rise and condemn whole creation ever more forever more.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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Just focusing on this statement .... if the soul is no more upon death of the body what is there to annihilate?
The meaning of words in the Bible can differ based on the context. In the case of creation of Adam, when God breathed His spirit into Adam's body he became a "living soul". Departure of the ghost from the body suggest reversal of this process. In this context, soul suggests something along the lines of "living/sentient component within a physical body".
However, "fear the one who can destroy both the body and the soul in hell", suggests different meaning for "soul" since the context tells us the body is dead, so here meaning of the soul more along the lines of "invisible, spiritual component of a human being".
"The soul that sins shall die" or " that soul shall be cut off from his people" suggests yet another meaning for soul - more along the lines of "an individual".

Especially in the light of the last, the Bible does tell us what is annihilated: their NAMES (identities) are blotted out (obliterated) from the book of life. To reinforce this point, the believers are said to receive a new name (new identity) in Jesus Christ! I believe this is one of the main informations that we have for the second death vs the second resurrection. I do not understand how exactly will this play out, maybe I will in time.

As a response to your post quoted below, soul or spirit likely do not belong to the empirical matter/energy realm where everything is lossless and just changes shape, so to say. Being is caused by the breath of the Spirit of God and God (unlike matter-energy world) who is an absolute being in whom we also have our being, cannot be empirically tamed for observation and measurement. I'd think you would concur that God is Spirit, who is above mere energy.

As to the matter, the body is said to be destroyed by decomposition, as long as the Bible is concerned "the dust (physical body that Spirit was breathed into) returns into dust (decomposes)", so this doesn't contradict science. Again, although the word annihilate has "nihil"/"nothing" in it, the word itself doesn't actually suggest something turning into nothing, but destruction. However, "blotting one out" does strongly suggest erasure.

Things to consider.....

Dust is matter, even fire changes matter to other molecules which disperse into the air, so again no annihilation can be inferred from fire if we are to glean spiritual truth from the physical nature of fire it would not be annihilation
Death is cessation of activity of the physical body, death can also mean inoperative
Death in context, according to the classical meaning of the word is also "separation" when referring to soul and spirit
No where has scripture shown that the dead are unconscious... Lazuras and the rich man demonstrate the opposite

This is where the scripture gets "flattened" by applying one semantic to all places

Do you think the soul is able to exist outside of the body?
If the soul is only material/matter as the atheists claim then we have a problem.