Annihilationists confuse types related to eternal punishment with the reality

[UnitedWithChrist]

Its a tricky one this, as I have thought about this as well. I think it isn't so much a case of having sympathy, but more the fact that after a lifetime of being told to forgive your enemies, when that's hard sometimes if they are truly wicked, then its hard to see how one can change from this compassion, to almost feel nothing when even the idea of something so dreadful is brought to mind to anyone's end seems horrific. It seems to be the extreme other spectrum of forgiveness - off the scale even.

I personally am not one who would find any satisfaction in knowing people suffer, whoever they are, so if its done for my sake, I cant imagine getting any pleasure from it (although I know some do in crime cases wanting to see the perpetrator die etc). Or maybe it is because it hard to imagine the people that are "not that bad" (not truly wicked) having something so horrific. Surely there cant be just two groups of people, good or bad. Hard to say. I even find the word "obliterate" horrific actually when used in that sense. But then if anyone was destined to be "obliterated" why does it say that for some "it would be better if they had never been born"? I still don't get it. Surely to some non believers being "obliterated" isn't much different an end to dying as they expect to anyhow, so don't see the difference. Maybe I just don't get it!

Just so you understand my position, I am a former annihilationist who now believes in eternal punishment.

The point in my posts has been that annihilationists are viewing the types of eternal punishment (Sodom and Gomorrah, Valley of Hinnom, etcetera) as the reality, whereas the reality is eternal punishment and is much worse.

Additionally, I would ask why annihilationists are so attentive to the suffering of the enemies of God, because, in reality, they are enemies of God and he glorifies in their defeat and punishment for their persecution of his people.

I think part of it is that people haven't read Psalms so they don't understand God's mind on this. Additionally, they have not connected these themes with the book of Revelation or Thessalonians, which clearly describe God taking vengeance upon his enemies, who are also the enemies of his peoples.

I can see why annihilationists believe what they do, since I was an annihilationist myself at one time, but if they really look closely on how death, destruction, perishing is used in Scripture, they should be able to see that the usage doesn't necessarily mean annihilationism but can relate to spiritual ruin, whether the being is conscious afterwards or not. Additionally, there is a failure to recognize the types between the holy places of the Garden of Eden, the camp of Israel, the city of Jerusalem, and the New Earth, each of which have individuals "cast out" from them (yet still conscious) due to their unholy lives.

As a former annihilationist, I can see why the Church has upheld the eternal torment view over an annihilationist view. And, it is not due to "tradition" and "Roman Catholic teaching" like annihilationists sometimes claim. It is because Scripture definitely supports the eternal torment view if one fully understands the word usage as well as the typological relationships I mentioned.

My guess is that many annihilationists really don't appreciate the gravity of our sins, and the sins of unsaved family members, though. They want annihilationism to be true. My sister, who is not an evangelical Christian, got angry with me due to telling her I no longer believed annihilationism because she didn't want to think about our brother suffering eternal torment. She isn't even a Christian, but won't even consider the eternal torment view (she was raised in a cultic household like myself and still believes that part of their false teachings).

 

[Heyjude]

Just so you understand my position, I am a former annihilationist who now believes in eternal punishment.

The point in my posts has been that annihilationists are viewing the types of eternal punishment (Sodom and Gomorrah, Valley of Hinnom, etcetera) as the reality, whereas the reality is eternal punishment and is much worse.

Additionally, I would ask why annihilationists are so attentive to the suffering of the enemies of God, because, in reality, they are enemies of God and he glorifies in their defeat and punishment for their persecution of his people.

I think part of it is that people haven't read Psalms so they don't understand God's mind on this. Additionally, they have not connected these themes with the book of Revelation or Thessalonians, which clearly describe God taking vengeance upon his enemies, who are also the enemies of his peoples.

I can see why annihilationists believe what they do, since I was an annihilationist myself at one time, but if they really look closely on how death, destruction, perishing is used in Scripture, they should be able to see that the usage doesn't necessarily mean annihilationism but can relate to spiritual ruin, whether the being is conscious afterwards or not. Additionally, there is a failure to recognize the types between the holy places of the Garden of Eden, the camp of Israel, the city of Jerusalem, and the New Earth, each of which have individuals "cast out" from them (yet still conscious) due to their unholy lives.

As a former annihilationist, I can see why the Church has upheld the eternal torment view over an annihilationist view. And, it is not due to "tradition" and "Roman Catholic teaching" like annihilationists sometimes claim. It is because Scripture definitely supports the eternal torment view if one fully understands the word usage as well as the typological relationships I mentioned.

My guess is that many annihilationists really don't appreciate the gravity of our sins, and the sins of unsaved family members, though. They want annihilationism to be true. My sister, who is not an evangelical Christian, got angry with me due to telling her I no longer believed annihilationism because she didn't want to think about our brother suffering eternal torment. She isn't even a Christian, but won't even consider the eternal torment view (she was raised in a cultic household like myself and still believes that part of their false teachings).

Hey UWC.

I agree with you in that people can tend to believe what they want to believe and it is the hardest thing to bare the thought of anyone in eternal torment who you once cared about. It can only produce sorrow as it can sort of ruin the memory of them so I understand how your sister must feel. Every time you think of "them" you think of "that". Some also believe the "whole households are saved" theory but it isn't scriptural as far as I can see.

I was thinking about this a lot yesterday, then I woke up this morning to the news about a random guy who grabbed a complete strangers little kid, then threw that little kid off the top of the Tate Modern Art Gallery roof here in London. For no reason at all. Then it reminded me of how God would see that man as there is no other description of it other than wickedness and evil.

Do you mind me asking what led you to change your belief in annihilationism and how did you initially feel about it?

Sorry I really should read the whole thread but for some reason I am not getting notifications for some posts so will have to just scroll back so sorry to ask you to repeat if you posted this already.

 

[garee]

Just so you understand my position, I am a former annihilationist who now believes in eternal punishment.

The point in my posts has been that annihilationists are viewing the types of eternal punishment (Sodom and Gomorrah, Valley of Hinnom, etcetera) as the reality, whereas the reality is eternal punishment and is much worse.

Additionally, I would ask why annihilationists are so attentive to the suffering of the enemies of God, because, in reality, they are enemies of God and he glorifies in their defeat and punishment for their persecution of his people.

I think part of it is that people haven't read Psalms so they don't understand God's mind on this. Additionally, they have not connected these themes with the book of Revelation or Thessalonians, which clearly describe God taking vengeance upon his enemies, who are also the enemies of his peoples.

I can see why annihilationists believe what they do, since I was an annihilationist myself at one time, but if they really look closely on how death, destruction, perishing is used in Scripture, they should be able to see that the usage doesn't necessarily mean annihilationism but can relate to spiritual ruin, whether the being is conscious afterwards or not. Additionally, there is a failure to recognize the types between the holy places of the Garden of Eden, the camp of Israel, the city of Jerusalem, and the New Earth, each of which have individuals "cast out" from them (yet still conscious) due to their unholy lives.

As a former annihilationist, I can see why the Church has upheld the eternal torment view over an annihilationist view. And, it is not due to "tradition" and "Roman Catholic teaching" like annihilationists sometimes claim. It is because Scripture definitely supports the eternal torment view if one fully understands the word usage as well as the typological relationships I mentioned.

My guess is that many annihilationists really don't appreciate the gravity of our sins, and the sins of unsaved family members, though. They want annihilationism to be true. My sister, who is not an evangelical Christian, got angry with me due to telling her I no longer believed annihilationism because she didn't want to think about our brother suffering eternal torment. She isn't even a Christian, but won't even consider the eternal torment view (she was raised in a cultic household like myself and still believes that part of their false teachings).

Sodom and Gomorrah, Valley of Hinnom, etcetera. They provide a picture for the end of the matter. . . Total destruction annihilation never to rise to new spirit life forever more.

But I would offer another kind of understanding in regard to the word "hell" as it is used in a literal way of sufferings. And not that you die then you suffer. But rather a living sacrifice appeasing the anger of God . Called by reason of mine affliction/suffering.

Using two witnesses Jonas and Jesus as the last given sign and wonder. . with the wonder representing a faith that looks ahead to the Jesus demonstration .

Jonas' three days in the belly of Hell the whale as compared to Jesus's suffering unto death not dying for reason of his affliction three days in the heart of the earth .Comparing one to the other. Both crying out to the unseen Father strengthening them to finish the work.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Matthew 26:37-39 King James Version (KJV) And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

After the third time strengthening both Jonas and Jesus finished the demonstration.

Jonah 2:1-3 King James Version (KJV)Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Hey UWC.

I agree with you in that people can tend to believe what they want to believe and it is the hardest thing to bare the thought of anyone in eternal torment who you once cared about. It can only produce sorrow as it can sort of ruin the memory of them so I understand how your sister must feel. Every time you think of "them" you think of "that". Some also believe the "whole households are saved" theory but it isn't scriptural as far as I can see.

I was thinking about this a lot yesterday, then I woke up this morning to the news about a random guy who grabbed a complete strangers little kid, then threw that little kid off the top of the Tate Modern Art Gallery roof here in London. For no reason at all. Then it reminded me of how God would see that man as there is no other description of it other than wickedness and evil.

Do you mind me asking what led you to change your belief in annihilationism and how did you initially feel about it?

Sorry I really should read the whole thread but for some reason I am not getting notifications for some posts so will have to just scroll back so sorry to ask you to repeat if you posted this already.

The main reason is that I understand the words "death", "perish" and "destruction" can apply to things other than physical death, perishing and destruction. Additionally, I see that there is a type between the Garden of Eden, the Israelite camp, the city of Jerusalem, and the New Jerusalem. All have individuals who were thrown out of it, and are thus "dead" but they exist in a conscious state.

Therefore, I don't think annihilationism has a solid foundation. Quite often they are referring to types of the OT that are related to eternal punishment as the reality. For instance, the Valley of Hinnom was a trash dump outside of Jerusalem used to burn convict's bodies. This is used as a type of eternal punishment, but it is not the reality, and to treat it as such is wrong. The reality is much worse than the type. The same applies to Sodom and Gomorrah. It was used as a type of eternal punishment, but the reality is much worse. Their claim is that the type is the same as the reality, and I don't find that credible.

If you read Rev 22, you see that the wicked are thrown outside of the New Jerusalem, but they still exist outside of the city. Additionally, there are other verses implying eternal torment in Revelation, as well as the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

So, their explanations are definitely not bulletproof, and I don't find them credible.

As a former cultist who was an annihilationist, I understand their reasoning but I think it is the result of their own ideas of justice, rather than God's sense of justice.

 

[Journeyman]

The wicked aren't "thrown outside the New Jerusalem", because the city is the bride and can only be entered through Christ,

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Rev.21:27

Also, the term "forever" can easily refer to this temporal existence. And the rich mans suffering isn't described as eternal.