Another look at John 10.

[posthuman]

Some believe they can lose Salvation. Walk away.

That's not Salvation. That's conditional reprieve. Man's doctrine. Not God's.

My trail is Happy. Lit by the light of God who keeps his word.

Good luck on your path.

yes

salvation that can be lost isn't salvation at all; it's damnation pretending to be salvation, just waiting to be revealed as damnation.

eternal life that isn't eternal is not eternal life at all; it's disguised death waiting to be revealed as death.

God is able to save to the uttermost, and He is faithful: salvation is His work, not mine.

i will trust Him.

 

[mailmandan]

The scripture assures us of salvation and all of those scriptures you quote that assure us of God’s salvation are only for those who “abide” in Him and his doctrine.

Once again, abiding in Christ is the mark of a genuine believer. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

You didn’t explain why God is telling Christian’s to abide in Him or they don’t have God in 2 John 9.

I already explained there are two camps: 1. "Those who transgress and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ and do not have God" (never did) and 2. "those who abide in the doctrine of Christ and have both the Father and the Son."

Or why Paul says you can fall from Grace in Gal. 5:4.

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! Paul did not say these Galatians lost their salvation and it's all over for them.

Why did Jesus tell the church (Christians) at Ephesus to “remember from where you have “FALLEN” and repent”? Tell us from WHERE did they fall? You won’t tell us but I will. They were Christian’s who “FELL” from their SAVED state or condition to an UNSAVED state or condition. This is true or why would Jesus tell them to repent? And why do Christian’s need to repent at all if they are going to be saved regardless of whether they repent or not?

That's your eisegesis. In regard to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent, to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for the depth of love it once had for the Lord. So what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lamp stand if the church in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but that the church there can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness, which apparently it did. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) is now dominated by Islam.

OSAs constantly contradicts God’s word, and is impossible in light of what God says.

OSAS contradicts your interpretation of God's word, but not God's word itself. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. How long is forever? Of those given to Jesus by the Father, how many will He cast out and how many will He lose? (John 6:37-39) How many of Jesus' sheep will be snatched from His hand and not receive eternal life? (John 10:27-29) Of those who are predestined, called and justified, how many of them will not be glorified? (Romans 8:30) Of those who are sanctified in Jesus Christ, how long does the Lord confirm them? (1 Corinthians 1:8) How long will they be sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ and perfected? (Hebrews 10:10,14) Of those who believe the gospel and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, how long are they sealed? (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) What does the word guarantee mean? (2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14)

Instead of just quoting more scripture that tell us the believers in Christ who “abide” in him are secure—which we all believe—how about explaining Rev. 2:5, Gal.5;4, 1 Cor. 10:12, and 2 Peter 3:17.

I already covered Revelation 2:5 and Galatians 5:4. In regard to 1 Corinthians 10:12, you think fall means lose salvation? In Psalm 37:28, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times
And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. In regard to 2 Peter 3:17, Peter writes, "lose your own stability." This phrase is also translated as "fall from your secure position," or "fall from your own steadfastness." The Greek phrase uses the word ekpesēte, which literally means, "to fall," (see Psalm 37:28) but this phrase is not indicative of losing salvation. The potential loss Peter has in mind is not that of eternal damnation, if we allow ourselves to be misled by false teachers. Peter, has written in 1 Peter 1:4-5 that a Christian's place in eternity is shielded by God's power and cannot be lost.

I’d like to know how you explain those—and at least about 20 more such scriptures that plainly teach a child of God CAN be lost if they leave Christ ( do not abide in Him).

I have explained multiple verses to you already and will be more than happy to explain more verses to you. I have explained these verses to numerous Roman Catholics, Mormons and other works-salvationists over the years as well.

Jesus told parables that illustrate this plainly in the story of the lost sheep and the lost (prodigal) son. Deal with the real issue here and stop just telling how those who are in God’s fold are saved. We all know that.

I already covered the prodigal son with you in post #279 from the thread below:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...u-can-get-unsaved.216824/page-14#post-5392662

Do you actually read my responses or just skim over them?

 

[mailmandan]

Only God knows who among his followers are genuine or not. We are not to assume the worse of people (love thinks no evil -1Cor. 13:5) and I surely don’t believe God expects us to know that he is only talking about people who are not genuine Christian’s. How odd. There is no hint whatsoever in this chapter that he is addressing hypocrites! You are grabbing at straws and making up something that is not in the context. But then, this doctrine has no better explanation to offer.

Only God does infallibly know the hearts of men and God also knows there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians/genuine believers and make believers. You seem to be naive about the latter and assume that ALL "professing" Christians must be genuine Christians. You have folks who truly believe the gospel and are saved and those who believed in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF. In Hebrews 10:39, we also see those who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul. I'll be more than happy to discuss Hebrews 10:26 with you later. What about these folks in 1 John 2:19 who went out from us but were not of us?

 

[mailmandan]

Does it surprise you there are Christians who try to insist they're not truly secure in Christ?

No, it doesn't surprise me, but I'm more concerned with reaching "nominal" Christians with the gospel who have no assurance of salvation.

 

[homwardbound]

The context surrounding a verse is so important. Verses are not little “islands”. Sitting all by themselves in a “sea” of words. The context of a passage is necessary to get a true understanding of the passage.

In John 10, Jesus is using an analogy of a shepherd and his sheep. Obviously, this analogy is about Jesus and His followers. His “sheep” follow him because they “know” Him. We understand these “sheep” are the “saved.” Jesus says no one, not “thieves, or robbers” in verses 1, 8, and 10. And not “strangers” in verse 5, and not “hirelings in verses 12 and 13. Can steal or take the sheep away from Him. Verse 29. This illustrates the security of the believer who follows the “good shepherd”, Christ. These verse are used as “proof” that a saved person can’t lose his salvation. But that isn’t what this passage is portraying. This IS about “sheep” getting STOLEN, not LEAVING! That is not the same thing. It is true that when a saved person is IN THE FOLD OF Christ, no one can STEAL them away. However, this story DOES NOT address the issue of a saved person LEAVING the fold of Christ; thus scripture only says they can’t be taken away by another person or some OUTSIDE force.

Here is another story told by Jesus that DOES teach the TRUTH about “can a saved person lose his salvation.” It’s in Luke 15:4-7. Again we are talking about “sheep” and the good shepherd. Christ.
“What man of you, having 100 sheep IF HE LOSES ONE OF THEM does not leave the 99 and go after THE ONE WHO IS LOST? SO Jesus CAN LOSE A SHEEP after all!! Did some “stranger” steal this sheep? NO! This speep LEFT OF HIS OWN FREE WILL. HE left the fold of Christ and HE WAS LOST—not just physically in this story—HE WAS LOST SPIRITUALLY! I know this because in verse 7 JESUS calls him A “SINNER WHO REPENTS” and identifies him as the one who was lost from the 99 others. This is proof that a child of God can leave God and be lost.
John 10 is not even talking about the same thing —much less “proof” that a saved person can’t leave Christ and be lost.

Free choice given to all, not a few, all.
Therefore anyone can change their mind and leave and not be in by free choice after being in, that is truth, otherwise free choice then is not true.
We then are all puppets, I think not!

tell me, since one sees the whole truth God loves them unconditionally, God never punishes you over things done wrong still, as people do still, even self. God continues in Faith to you, knowing you will see this friendship given you by Son the risen one For you, to be risen presently, daily in continued belief to this done work for you to be new presently, daily, one leaves sin behind them not ever having to be aware of that again.
Wow, woe is me, seeing the hot fire coals of the Holy Fire touch me, you and all others too and be declared not guilty, by God's love for us all.
Why would I, you or any one else ever leave, seeing Jeremiah 29:11 as true for us all to respond to in thanksgiving and praise to this amazing grace given us?
Father with Son as Won knows best, even if in troubles presently to execute trust to Father still, in spite of the trouble(s) as if already won thank you