Any Historically orthodox Christians here?

[ResidentAlien]

Yet, so many will sit under a Pastor who had a 2-year correspondence Bible course taught by who knows who; and sits soaking up the garbage on TBN.

Well, at least on this much we're in agreement.

By the same token, spiritual leaders aren't measured by the number of degrees on their walls; or how many years of experience they have; or how much praise they receive from men; or how many confessions or creeds they can quote. John the Baptist lived in the desert and had a diet of locusts and wild honey and Jesus said of those born of women there was never one greater than John the Baptist!

Here's a question for you. Should we even be looking for a pastor (singular)? Where in the scriptures is it taught that there's to be only one head or lead pastor running the show? Perhaps we should answer this question first.

 

[wattie]

I don't. They're unnecessary in my opinion. I embrace the values of some of them but I don't embrace creeds and confessions per se. I rely on the Holy Spirit.

Growing up in the Methodist church we recited the Apostle's Creed every Sunday, then went home and forgot about it till next Sunday.

Same experience in a nz methodist church here for me. Wasnt till I went to university and found a Christian club that showed me the reality behind Jesus' life death and resurrection that any kind of creed started to ring true

 

[Jon-E]

Well, at least on this much we're in agreement.

By the same token, spiritual leaders aren't measured by the number of degrees on their walls; or how many years of experience they have; or how much praise they receive from men; or how many confessions or creeds they can quote. John the Baptist lived in the desert and had a diet of locusts and wild honey and Jesus said of those born of women there was never one greater than John the Baptist!

Here's a question for you. Should we even be looking for a pastor (singular)? Where in the scriptures is it taught that there's to be only one head or lead pastor running the show? Perhaps we should answer this question first.

Ah ha! It seems on this we have an agreement as well. I do believe in a plurality of Elders, rather than a one Pastor dictatorship. I've actually read from a Pastor that since he was given the care of the souls of those in his congregation, he is biblically a dictator. Speaking of John the Baptist, he actually fulfilled and matched the prophecies given of him in the Old Testament. Yes, many degrees are held by those claiming to be minister's of God who deny the truth and authority of Scripture. When it comes to man, this is why I believe solidly in comparing the historic creeds and confessions of the church and see that broad area of agreement, the "one faith". The 2018 Handbook of Denominations in the US lists over 200 religious bodies and that just does not fit what is to be expected.

"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls: but they said, We will not walk therein." (Jer 6:16, ERV)

 

[ResidentAlien]

Ah ha! It seems on this we have an agreement as well. I do believe in a plurality of Elders, rather than a one Pastor dictatorship. I've actually read from a Pastor that since he was given the care of the souls of those in his congregation, he is biblically a dictator. Speaking of John the Baptist, he actually fulfilled and matched the prophecies given of him in the Old Testament. Yes, many degrees are held by those claiming to be minister's of God who deny the truth and authority of Scripture. When it comes to man, this is why I believe solidly in comparing the historic creeds and confessions of the church and see that broad area of agreement, the "one faith". The 2018 Handbook of Denominations in the US lists over 200 religious bodies and that just does not fit what is to be expected.

"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls: but they said, We will not walk therein." (Jer 6:16, ERV)

Okay, but don't those denominations that use confessions and creeds also have a main guy? Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians?

 

[Isaskar]

I dont think there really is such a thing as orthodoxy in history.

I have looked into it, perhaps a bit too much. Things we consider parts of orthodoxy like the trinity isn't orthodox doctrine before the council of Nicea.

The people prior to that did believe Jesus is God many of times, but they didn't believe in a co-equal Son, examples of this are the Logos theologians like Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Some also denied the eternal nature of the Son. Majority did at some point, we know this from their writings where they are basically calling the regular peasants dumb for not understanding their philosophical explanations.

Sabellianism was a huge movement, they taught Jesus IS the Father. Modalism where God has three forms, Father Son and Holy Spirit was also popular.

There are so many different views in history, all with large enough backing to be considered "Orthodox" that the word has lost all meaning in Christianity.

Take a look at the Orthodox christians today and you see witchcraft, you see praying to saints, you see walking around the church in circles, you see all sorts of things that would not be considered "orthodox" by a 1st century judeo-christian Church.

Not talking bad about the church fathers here by the way, just highlighting that they also differed amongst each other in their views and none of us are perfect in our interpretation.

I believe we ought to focus more on obedience and the way we live our Christian life, day to day, rather than on phiosophical and theoretical ideas on what list of doctrines to believe or how it all goes about. I have spent a decade of my life looking into it all, and im none the wiser, dont make my mistake, learn from it.

I personally believe the Bible is a rather simple book, written to simple every day people, and when the educated philosophers got their hands on it, we lost a lot of the original jewish worldview and replaced it with pagan wisdom. Many of these guys were former philosophers and a lot of guys like Luther and Calvin pretty much just copied what Augustine had to say and repackaged it.

 

[Jon-E]

Okay, but don't those denominations that use confessions and creeds also have a main guy? Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians?

The Book of Concord is not merely the writings and conclusions of Luther alone. The Lutheran Standards were worked on by many. The same is true of John Calvin, he was what may be called an Original Thinker, but what is considered the Reformed and/or Calvinistic Standards were put together in discussions of many. I embrace the 1644/1646 First London Confession of Faith and its Foreword or Preamble reads:

"A confession of faith of seven congregations or churches of Christ in London, which are commonly, but unjustly, called Anabaptists; published for the vindication of the truth and information of the ignorant; likewise for the taking off those aspersions which are frequently, both in pulpit and print, unjustly cast upon them. Printed in London, Anno 1646."

This is a Particular Baptist Confession and considered the first real Baptist confession because it is the first to state that baptism is immersion. The 3 main points in this confession that appealed to me are:

1. It does not teach that the Ten Commandments must be taught prior to conversion; that every man by instinct knows he is a sinner before God, as is said in Rom. 2:14, 15.

2. It emphasizes Jesus Christ and the New Covenant and its conclusion it reads: "Also we confess, that we know but in part, and that we are ignorant of many things which we desire and seek to know; and if any shall do us that friendly part to show us from the word of God that which we see not, we shall have cause to be thankful to God and them; but if any man shall impose upon us anything that we see not to be commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ, we should in His strength rather embrace all reproaches and tortures of men, to be stripped of all outward comforts, and if it were possible, to die a thousand deaths, rather than to do anything against the least tittle of the truth of God or against the light of our own consciences."

3. It says very little about the last day and the resurrection and judgement, reading only: "LII. There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust, and everyone shall give an account of himself to God, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Acts 24:15; 1 Cor. 5:10; Rom. 14:12. [Matt. 25; Rev. 22:11,12,13,14,15.]"

I especially appreciate the fact this #3 is so simple and clearly based on stated facts in the NT. Down through the centuries great men of God have held 3 main positions on eschatology: a-mil, post-mil and pre-mil. The new system called Dispensationalism would have been rejected by the men of God out of the past as being a convoluted, man-made system.

I do have some other matters I must attend to in near future so I may stop posting, at least for a while.