Apostasy 101

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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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#21
Hebrews 6
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become [e]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

>Continued faith and hope. Don't let anyone on these forums tell you any other way. You are seeing these scriptures with your own eyes.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#22
1 John 2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Jesus Is Our Helper
2 My dear children, I write this letter to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone sins, we have Jesus Christ to help us. He always did what was right, so he is able to defend us before God the Father. 2 Jesus is the way our sins are taken away. And he is the way all people can have their sins taken away too.

3 If we obey what God has told us to do, then we are sure that we know him. 4 If we say we know God but do not obey his commands, we are lying. The truth is not in us. 5 But when we obey God’s teaching, his love is truly working in us. This is how we know that we are living in him. 6 If we say we live in God, we must live the way Jesus lived.

Jesus Told Us to Love Others
7 My dear friends, I am not writing a new command to you. It is the same command you have had since the beginning. This command is the teaching you have already heard. 8 But what I write is also a new command. It is a true one; you can see its truth in Jesus and in yourselves. The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.

9 Someone might say, “I am in the light,” but if they hate any of their brothers or sisters in God’s family, they are still in the darkness. 10 Those who love their brothers and sisters live in the light, and there is nothing in them that will make them do wrong. 11 But whoever hates their brother or sister is in darkness. They live in darkness. They don’t know where they are going, because the darkness has made them blind.

12 I write to you, dear children,
because your sins are forgiven through Christ.
13 I write to you, fathers,
because you know the one who existed from the beginning.
I write to you, young people,
because you have defeated the Evil One.
14 I write to you, children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know the one who existed from the beginning.
I write to you, young people,
because you are strong.
The word of God lives in you,
and you have defeated the Evil One.

15 Don’t love this evil world or the things in it. If you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. 16 This is all there is in the world: wanting to please our sinful selves, wanting the sinful things we see, and being too proud of what we have. But none of these comes from the Father. They come from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and all the things that people want in the world are passing away. But whoever does what God wants will live forever.

Don’t Follow the Enemies of Christ
18 My dear children, the end is near! You have heard that the enemy of Christ is coming. And now many enemies of Christ are already here. So we know that the end is near. 19 These enemies were in our group, but they left us. They did not really belong with us. If they were really part of our group, they would have stayed with us. But they left. This shows that none of them really belonged with us.

20 You have the gift[a] that the Holy One gave you. So you all know the truth. 21 Do you think I am writing this letter because you don’t know the truth? No, I am writing because you do know the truth. And you know that no lie comes from the truth.

22 So who is the liar? It is the one who says Jesus is not the Messiah. Whoever says that is the enemy of Christ—the one who does not believe in the Father or in his Son. 23 Whoever does not believe in the Son does not have the Father, but whoever accepts the Son has the Father too.

24 Be sure that you continue to follow the teaching you heard from the beginning. If you do that, you will always be in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what the Son promised us—eternal life.

26 I am writing this letter about those who are trying to lead you into the wrong way. 27 Christ gave you a special gift. You still have this gift in you. So you don’t need anyone to teach you. The gift he gave you teaches you about everything. It is a true gift, not a false one. So continue to live in Christ, as his gift taught you.

28 Yes, my dear children, live in him. If we do this, we can be without fear on the day when Christ comes again. We will not need to hide and be ashamed when he comes. 29 You know that Christ always did what was right. So you know that all those who do what is right are God’s children.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,897
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Brighton, MI
#23
Hebrews 6
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become [e]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

>Continued faith and hope. Don't let anyone on these forums tell you any other way. You are seeing these scriptures with your own eyes.
Hebrews 6 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
6 So we should be finished with the beginning lessons about Christ. We should not have to keep going back to where we started. We began our new life by turning away from the evil we did in the past and by believing in God. That’s when we were taught about baptisms,[a] laying hands on people, the resurrection of those who have died, and the final judgment. Now we need to go forward to more mature teaching. 3 And that’s what we will do if God allows.

4-6 After people have left the way of Christ, can you make them change their lives again? I am talking about people who once learned the truth, received God’s gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. They were blessed to hear God’s good message and see the great power of his new world. But then they left it all behind, and it is not possible to make them change again. That’s because those who leave Christ are nailing him to the cross again, shaming him before everyone.

7 Some people are like land that gets plenty of rain and produces a good crop for those who farm it. That kind of land has God’s blessing. 8 But other people are like land that grows only thorns and weeds. It is worthless and in danger of being cursed by God. It will be destroyed by fire.

9 Dear friends, I am not saying this because I think it is happening to you. We really expect that you will do better—that you will do the good things that will result in your salvation. 10 God is fair, and he will remember all the work you have done. He will remember that you showed your love to him by helping his people and that you continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to be willing and eager to show your love like that the rest of your life. Then you will be sure to get what you hope for. 12 We don’t want you to be lazy. We want you to be like those who, because of their faith and patience, will get what God has promised.

13 God made a promise to Abraham. And there is no one greater than God, so he made the promise with an oath in his own name—an oath that he would do what he promised. 14 He said, “I will surely bless you. I will give you many descendants.”[c] 15 Abraham waited patiently for this to happen, and later he received what God promised.

16 People always use the name of someone greater than themselves to make a promise with an oath. The oath proves that what they say is true, and there is no more arguing about it. 17 God wanted to prove that his promise was true. He wanted to prove this to those who would get what he promised. He wanted them to understand clearly that his purposes never change. So God said something would happen, and he proved what he said by adding an oath. 18 These two things cannot change: God cannot lie when he says something, and he cannot lie when he makes an oath.

So these two things are a great help to us who have come to God for safety. They encourage us to hold on to the hope that is ours. 19 This hope is like an anchor for us. It is strong and sure and keeps us safe. It goes behind the curtain.[d] 20 Jesus has already entered there and opened the way for us. He has become the high priest forever, just like Melchizedek.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#25
1 John 2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Jesus Is Our Helper
2 My dear children, I write this letter to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone sins, we have Jesus Christ to help us. He always did what was right, so he is able to defend us before God the Father. 2 Jesus is the way our sins are taken away. And he is the way all people can have their sins taken away too.

3 If we obey what God has told us to do, then we are sure that we know him. 4 If we say we know God but do not obey his commands, we are lying. The truth is not in us. 5 But when we obey God’s teaching, his love is truly working in us. This is how we know that we are living in him. 6 If we say we live in God, we must live the way Jesus lived.

Jesus Told Us to Love Others
7 My dear friends, I am not writing a new command to you. It is the same command you have had since the beginning. This command is the teaching you have already heard. 8 But what I write is also a new command. It is a true one; you can see its truth in Jesus and in yourselves. The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.

9 Someone might say, “I am in the light,” but if they hate any of their brothers or sisters in God’s family, they are still in the darkness. 10 Those who love their brothers and sisters live in the light, and there is nothing in them that will make them do wrong. 11 But whoever hates their brother or sister is in darkness. They live in darkness. They don’t know where they are going, because the darkness has made them blind.

12 I write to you, dear children,
because your sins are forgiven through Christ.
13 I write to you, fathers,
because you know the one who existed from the beginning.
I write to you, young people,
because you have defeated the Evil One.
14 I write to you, children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know the one who existed from the beginning.
I write to you, young people,
because you are strong.
The word of God lives in you,
and you have defeated the Evil One.

15 Don’t love this evil world or the things in it. If you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. 16 This is all there is in the world: wanting to please our sinful selves, wanting the sinful things we see, and being too proud of what we have. But none of these comes from the Father. They come from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and all the things that people want in the world are passing away. But whoever does what God wants will live forever.

Don’t Follow the Enemies of Christ
18 My dear children, the end is near! You have heard that the enemy of Christ is coming. And now many enemies of Christ are already here. So we know that the end is near. 19 These enemies were in our group, but they left us. They did not really belong with us. If they were really part of our group, they would have stayed with us. But they left. This shows that none of them really belonged with us.

20 You have the gift[a] that the Holy One gave you. So you all know the truth. 21 Do you think I am writing this letter because you don’t know the truth? No, I am writing because you do know the truth. And you know that no lie comes from the truth.

22 So who is the liar? It is the one who says Jesus is not the Messiah. Whoever says that is the enemy of Christ—the one who does not believe in the Father or in his Son. 23 Whoever does not believe in the Son does not have the Father, but whoever accepts the Son has the Father too.

24 Be sure that you continue to follow the teaching you heard from the beginning. If you do that, you will always be in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what the Son promised us—eternal life.

26 I am writing this letter about those who are trying to lead you into the wrong way. 27 Christ gave you a special gift. You still have this gift in you. So you don’t need anyone to teach you. The gift he gave you teaches you about everything. It is a true gift, not a false one. So continue to live in Christ, as his gift taught you.

28 Yes, my dear children, live in him. If we do this, we can be without fear on the day when Christ comes again. We will not need to hide and be ashamed when he comes. 29 You know that Christ always did what was right. So you know that all those who do what is right are God’s children.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#26
1 John 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#28
Acts 20:28-35 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
28 Be careful for yourselves and for all the people God has given you. The Holy Spirit gave you the work of caring for[a] this flock. You must be shepherds to the church of God,[c] the people he bought with his own blood.[d] 29 I know that after I leave, some men will come into your group. They will be like wild wolves and will try to destroy the flock. 30 Also, men from your own group will begin to teach things that are wrong. They will lead some of the Lord’s followers away from the truth to follow them. 31 So be careful! And always remember what I did during the three years I was with you. I never stopped reminding each one of you how you should live, counseling you day and night and crying over you.

32 “Now I am putting you in God’s care. I am depending on the message about his grace to make you strong. That message is able to give you the blessings that God gives to all his holy people. 33 When I was with you, I never wanted anyone’s money or fine clothes. 34 You know that I always worked to take care of my own needs and the needs of the people who were with me. 35 I always showed you that you should work just as I did and help people who are weak. I taught you to remember the words of the Lord Jesus: ‘You will have a greater blessing when you give than when you receive.’”
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#29
Chapter 11. Concerning Teachers, Apostles, and Prophets. Whosoever, therefore, comes and teaches you all these things that have been said before, receive him. But if the teacher himself turns and teaches another doctrine to the destruction of this, hear him not. But if he teaches so as to increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord. But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there's a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it, unless he is indeed a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others' sake who are in need, let no one judge him.

Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#30
Matthew 7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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#31
2 Peter 2
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
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#33
2 Peter 2
2 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction [a]does not slumber.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,897
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#34
2 Peter 2
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

2 Peter 2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
False Teachers
2 In the past there were false prophets among God’s people. It is the same now. You will have some false teachers in your group. They will teach things that are wrong—ideas that will cause people to be lost. And they will teach in a way that will be hard for you to see that they are wrong. They will even refuse to follow the Master who bought their freedom. And so they will quickly destroy themselves. 2 Many people will follow them in the morally wrong things they do. And because of them, others will say bad things about the way of truth we follow. 3 These false teachers only want your money. So they will use you by telling you things that are not true. But the judgment against these false teachers has been ready for a long time. And they will not escape God who will destroy them.

4 When angels sinned, God did not let them go free without punishment. He sent them to hell. He put those angels in caves of darkness, where they are being held until the time when God will judge them.

5 And God punished the evil people who lived long ago. He brought a flood to the world that was full of people who were against God. But he saved Noah and seven other people with him. Noah was a man who told people about living right.

6 God also punished the evil cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. He burned them until there was nothing left but ashes. He used those cities as an example of what will happen to people who are against God. 7 But he saved Lot, a good man who lived there. Lot was greatly troubled by the morally bad lives of those evil people. 8 This good man lived with those evil people every day, and his good heart was hurt by the evil things he saw and heard.

9 So you see that the Lord God knows how to save those who are devoted to him. He will save them when troubles come. And the Lord will hold evil people to punish them on the day of judgment. 10 That punishment is for those who are always doing the evil that their sinful selves want to do. It is for those who hate the Lord’s authority.

These false teachers do whatever they want, and they are so proud of themselves. They are not afraid even to say bad things against the glorious ones.[a] 11 The angels are much stronger and more powerful than these beings. But even the angels don’t accuse them and say bad things about them to the Lord.

12 But these false teachers speak evil against what they don’t understand. They are like animals that do things without really thinking—like wild animals that are born to be caught and killed. And, like wild animals, they will be destroyed. 13 They have made many people suffer. So they themselves will suffer. That is their pay for what they have done.

They think it is fun to do evil where everyone can see them. They enjoy the evil things that please them. So they are like dirty spots and stains among you—they bring shame to you in the meals you eat together. 14 Every time they look at a woman, they want her. They are always sinning this way. And they lead weaker people into the trap of sin. They have taught themselves well to be greedy. They are under a curse.

15 These false teachers left the right way and went the wrong way. They followed the same way that the prophet Balaam went. He was the son of Beor, who loved being paid for doing wrong. 16 But a donkey told him that he was doing wrong. A donkey cannot talk, of course, but that donkey spoke with a man’s voice and stopped the prophet from acting so crazy.

17 These false teachers are like springs that have no water. They are like clouds that are blown by a storm. A place in the deepest darkness has been kept for them. 18 They boast with words that mean nothing. They lead people into the trap of sin. They find people who have just escaped from a wrong way of life and lead them back into sin. They do this by using the evil things people want to do in their human weakness. 19 These false teachers promise those people freedom, but they themselves are not free. They are slaves to a mind that has been ruined by sin. Yes, people are slaves to anything that controls them.

20 People can be made free from the evil in the world. They can be made free by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they go back into those evil things and are controlled by them, then it is worse for them than it was before. 21 Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way. That would be better than to know the right way and then to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them. 22 What they did is like these true sayings: “A dog vomits and goes back to what it threw up.”[c] And, “After a pig is washed, it goes back and rolls in the mud again.”
 

TheLearner

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#37
If you want to put yourself in the category of false teacher, then that's up to you mate.
You did not prove that the church today is in universal apostasy. Thus you are in checkmate. One does not have to be a false teacher to see that.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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#38
Ephesians 6
13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

>there is a standing in faith that is not a momentary point in time. It's making a stand against the enemy. And continuing to do so.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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#39
Ephesians 6
18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#40
Its directed to the church. The only time Paul uses "you" is when he is rebuking those who seem to be once again falling back to their old ways of which he (Paul) is not included. Did you see how many hoops you have to jump through to force fit your doctrine. Starts becoming comical, if it were not so dangerous.
No hoops, just knowing the audience. Words are important.