Apostasy 101

[Noose]

We have a covenant relationship with God. He is a God of justice. If we do our part of the promise then we can be sure that HE will do His part. There are Hebrew letters that take four pen strokes to make. There can be up to four conditions for a promise from God. For example: "women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." " faith, love and holiness with propriety" are all conditions and really there is a fifth one in that they have to continue in this. I remember my sister in law had some medical issues when she was having her daughter. I gave her this scripture and she hung onto that God was going to work everything out for her. This ties her in with her daughter though. They are pretty close to each other. For example her daughter is going to be going to Europe for 3 months for a job she is working on. The mother is going to go over there for 2 weeks to spend time with her. So even though her daughter is something like 30 years old. They are still pretty close to each other.

I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Enxu]

I never said anything about a Christian losing their will (free will) yet John clearly stated in 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin.. (NASB) Yet you say those who are born of God practice sin and lose their salvation. That's fallacy. John never said that. To practice sin is an ongoing, willful, habitual lifestyle with no goal or effort to stop (no repentance, just bring on the sin!) which characterizes children of the devil and not children of God.

You are right about what it means to practice sin but wrong about how no one can lose their salvation upon believing. They can by a change of faith.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith

1 Timothy 1:19 By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith

There is nothing in these verses to say that they departed or shipwrecked or erred from a FALSE faith.

 

[Enxu]

Christians can get tripped up, stumble and temporarily fall. Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, but the wicked shall fall by calamity. There are also plenty of "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians, so these warnings are not for nothing. Many people who thought they were Christians will one day go on to Jesus about their alleged wonderful works, yet Jesus will proclaim to them that He NEVER knew them (Matthew 7:22-23) which also demonstrates what they were trusting in for salvation and it was NOT CHRIST ALONE.

You are right true Christians can fall and stumble, but you are wrong when you say the warnings are directed only at nominal Christians. None of the apostles said the warnings were written ONLY to nominal believers, there were no distinctions in their epistles between nominal and true Christians to begin with. Those groups were made up by you.

 

[mailmandan]

You are right about what it means to practice sin but wrong about how no one can lose their salvation upon believing. They can by a change of faith.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith

1 Timothy 1:19 By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith

There is nothing in these verses to say that they departed or shipwrecked or erred from a FALSE faith.

I don't see the words, "lose salvation" there. In 1 Timothy 4:1, I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. I believe the beginning of such a departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church rose to power in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids it's clergy to marry. (1 Timothy 4:3) This RCC has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, works salvation etc..

In 1 Timothy 1:20, we read - Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. Where have we heard that before? In 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, we read about a man who has committed sexual immorality by having his father's wife (does that sound like shipwrecked faith? Was it permanent?), yet verse 5 says deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If Hymenaeus and Alexander were truly saved, then how do we know the outcome was not the same for them as it was the adulterer in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who later repented in 2 Corinthians chapter 2? Nothing is mentioned about him "losing his salvation" either. I don't see the words, "lost salvation" in 1 Timothy 6:10 either, so your argument is INCONCLUSIVE.

 

[Enxu]

I don't see the words, "lose salvation" there. In 1 Timothy 4:1, I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. I believe the beginning of such a departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church rose to power in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids it's clergy to marry. (1 Timothy 4:3) This RCC has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, works salvation etc..

In 1 Timothy 1:20, we read - Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. Where have we heard that before? In 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, we read about a man who has committed sexual immorality by having his father's wife (does that sound like shipwrecked faith? Was it permanent?), yet verse 5 says deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If Hymenaeus and Alexander were truly saved, then how do we know the outcome was not the same for them as it was the adulterer in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who later repented in 2 Corinthians chapter 2? Nothing is mentioned about him "losing his salvation" either. I don't see the words, "lost salvation" in 1 Timothy 6:10 either, so your argument is INCONCLUSIVE.

So according to you, those who shipwrecked their faith (as mentioned by apostle Paul) actually shipwrecked a false faith?

 

[PennEd]

So, somehow once a person professes Jesus Christ and becomes a Christian, they suddenly lose their will and can no longer sin wilfully? That’s fallacy. It is true that the children of the devil practise sin and children of God do not practise sin, but it is false that a true Christian can never go back into the practise of sin.

Children of the devil or children of God are spiritual statuses reflected by the lifestyles of individuals, and statuses CAN change because lifestyles can change. Or else it is foolish for the apostles to write warnings after warnings against false teachings, against walking after the flesh, against loving money and the world, exhorting Christians to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith etc etc. If their statuses as children of God can never change then the apostles wrote the epistles for NOTHING.

Even apostle Peter in 2 Peter 2:20 talked about how people who once escaped corruption by knowing Jesus Christ became entangled in corruption again are like dogs returning to vomit and resemble pigs washed clean going back to the mire. Hebrews 6:6 also talked about how it is impossible to bring back into repentance people who have once tasted the goodness of the Lord and eventually turned away from Him because they end up crucifying Him again. Clearly all these verses talked about changes in people regarding their faith and how it is very possible for true Christians to walk away from their faith , reject Christ whom they once accepted and return to the corruption they’ve escaped.

The children of God are born again from above. Birth isn’t determined by behavior. The warnings are there for individuals to examine themselves to see if they indeed have been born again.

The child of God will be corrected for his behavior, not cast into the lake of fire.
Really kinda insulting to God our Father to say He would toss His kids into hell for misbehaving.

 

[Enxu]

I don't see the words, "lose salvation" there. In 1 Timothy 4:1, I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. I believe the beginning of such a departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church rose to power in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids it's clergy to marry. (1 Timothy 4:3) This RCC has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, works salvation etc..

In 1 Timothy 1:20, we read - Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. Where have we heard that before? In 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, we read about a man who has committed sexual immorality by having his father's wife (does that sound like shipwrecked faith? Was it permanent?), yet verse 5 says deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If Hymenaeus and Alexander were truly saved, then how do we know the outcome was not the same for them as it was the adulterer in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who later repented in 2 Corinthians chapter 2? Nothing is mentioned about him "losing his salvation" either. I don't see the words, "lost salvation" in 1 Timothy 6:10 either, so your argument is INCONCLUSIVE.

Btw, I’m still wondering why God saved an entire generation of Israel from Egypt which later perished in disbelief when according to you, they never had true saving faith to begin with. Care to clarify?

 

[mailmandan]

So according to you, those who shipwrecked their faith (as mentioned by apostle Paul) actually shipwrecked a false faith?

Read what I said again.

 

[mailmandan]

Btw, I’m still wondering why God saved an entire generation of Israel from Egypt which later perished in disbelief when according to you, they never had true saving faith to begin with. Care to clarify?

God delivered (saved in that sense) these Israelites out of Egypt but later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5)

 

[Enxu]

Read what I said again.

I did, and asked a straightforward question. Why are you avoiding to answer it?

 

[Enxu]

God delivered (saved in that sense) these Israelites out of Egypt but later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5)

So why did God first save and then destroy those who did not believe? Why didn’t He destroy them at the very beginning by leaving them in Egypt?

 

[Grandpa]

The multitude of desperate, impassioned warnings in the Bible tell us otherwise.
And don't forget......the saved Galatians stopped believing.


You could jump back in the water.
That's what could happen.

This is all just your own imagination.

Nobody saved ever stopped believing.

And if you knew where they were saved from you would understand the impossibility of jumping back in the water.

 

[Grandpa]

So why did God first save and then destroy those who did not believe? Why didn’t He destroy them at the very beginning by leaving them in Egypt?

Because the wheat was with the tares.

And God wanted the wheat.

 

[Noose]

In 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, we read about a man who has committed sexual immorality by having his father's wife (does that sound like shipwrecked faith? Was it permanent?), yet verse 5 says deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The spirit may be saved ON THE DAY OF THE LORD.
Nothing here supports OSAS. All of us are waiting for the same salvation on the same day.

 

[Enxu]

God delivered (saved in that sense) these Israelites out of Egypt but later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5)

The reason I’m asking these questions is very simple. Both the examples of Israel and the people Paul mentioned who shipwrecked their faith showed clearly that people can start out with faith that got them saved but later shipwreck or stop that faith.

 

[Enxu]

Because the wheat was with the tares.

And God wanted the wheat.

Wrong. The tares were burned right at the start. They weren’t collected into the barns first and then burned later. God will never save a tare that was a tare from the beginning.

 

[Grandpa]

We WILL be saved if we persevere in the faith, that is what the Gospel actually said. We are still in the wilderness and being tried by God like the Old Testament Israelis. Did all Israelis who came out of Egypt enter into the Promised Land? No, because an entire generation died in disbelief, even though they first started out with faith and was delivered from their slavemasters. Faith can be dead, changed, rejected, shipwrecked, destroyed. This is not only what is said in the entire Bible, found within the examples of Israel, it is seen in actual reality.

The Hebrews weren't spiritually saved by the Lord Jesus in Egypt.

They were physically taken out of slavery.

Those that were spiritually saved NEVER lost that Salvation. Nor was it possible that they could.


But you can't really teach an unbeliever how to believe. They either do or they don't.

John 10:26-29
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


A believer believes in the Power of God. They believe that the Lord Jesus gives them Eternal Life and that they will never perish. No one can pluck them from Gods Hand.

But what does an un-beleiver say? They say the exact opposite. You can't hear the Lord. You can't have eternal life. You can stop believing and essentially pluck yourself from Gods Hand.


So who does the believer believe? The Lord Jesus or some false prophet who doesn't understand scripture?

Do I need to answer this or is it pretty self-evident?

 

[Enxu]

Because the wheat was with the tares.

And God wanted the wheat.

Besides why does Paul write this if no one saved can lose their faith (and hence their salvation):

Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God's kindness toward you--if you remain in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

 

[Grandpa]

Wrong. The tares were burned right at the start. They weren’t collected into the barns first and then burned later. God will never save a tare that was a tare from the beginning.

Of the spies that spied out the land how many were wheat and how many were tares?

Who entered the land from that generation and who did not?


The wheat was separated from the tares and the tares did not go in.

 

[Enxu]

The Hebrews weren't spiritually saved by the Lord Jesus in Egypt.

They were physically taken out of slavery.

Those that were spiritually saved NEVER lost that Salvation. Nor was it possible that they could.

Seriously? God delivered Israel because of their faith in all He said to them through Moses, even if it was just physical deliverance. It was still a form of salvation that was a foreshadow of deliverance that will ultimately be done by Jesus. Your statements have absolutely no scriptural backing.

John 10:26-29
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Your point is still moot because Jesus NEVER said a sheep cannot stray from Him by walking away from Him.

You also conveniently ignore that apostle Paul said any believer can be cut off from the vine if they fail to remain in God’s kindness.