Apostasy 101
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Hebrews 6
6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
They both say exactly the same thing. Nothing difficult or hard to be understood here. If you reject the one true way, then you are up the creek without a paddle. The same applies to everybody. Those who were save 20 years ago do get a free pass to just fall away and live like hippies the rest of their lives. They don't have to do any good works, but they do need to cease their mockeries and blasphemies. This isn't that hard to understand, is it?
6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
They both say exactly the same thing. Nothing difficult or hard to be understood here. If you reject the one true way, then you are up the creek without a paddle. The same applies to everybody. Those who were save 20 years ago do get a free pass to just fall away and live like hippies the rest of their lives. They don't have to do any good works, but they do need to cease their mockeries and blasphemies. This isn't that hard to understand, is it?
4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?
9 —how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces d ? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?
10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!
Galatians 5:4,7,9,10
Are these just more osas 'not really' passages? They don't really mean what they say, so it's not really true that they were not obeying the truth and not really keeping the law in order to be justified instead of in Christ?
And here's the really interesting part. No osas'er would say this to a saved person:
11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. - Galatians 4:11
They can't say that because in osas doctrine there is no such thing as the effort expended to bring someone to faith in Christ ever being wasted because that doctrine says they can never become unsaved. So, apparently Paul did not believe in osas doctrine.
7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?
9 —how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces d ? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?
10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!
Galatians 5:4,7,9,10
Are these just more osas 'not really' passages? They don't really mean what they say, so it's not really true that they were not obeying the truth and not really keeping the law in order to be justified instead of in Christ?
And here's the really interesting part. No osas'er would say this to a saved person:
11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. - Galatians 4:11
They can't say that because in osas doctrine there is no such thing as the effort expended to bring someone to faith in Christ ever being wasted because that doctrine says they can never become unsaved. So, apparently Paul did not believe in osas doctrine.
The interesting thing being, Paul says if you do get circumcised after the manner of Moses you cannot be saved.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. - Galatians 5:2
It's funny how it's being argued here that the Galatians 'kind of, sorta, could be, maybe' law keeping does not condemn them to hell, but the mere hint of a believer's law keeping in this forum will get them condemned to hell as a works salvationist in an instant.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. - Galatians 5:2
It's funny how it's being argued here that the Galatians 'kind of, sorta, could be, maybe' law keeping does not condemn them to hell, but the mere hint of a believer's law keeping in this forum will get them condemned to hell as a works salvationist in an instant.
This OP by @dcontroversal needs no resolution.... because it is a statement of TRUTH....and because it is TRUTH it is edifying.
Your threads ... hmmm ... VOID of truth comes to mind.
It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!
English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
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I've heard that same argument from Roman Catholics numerous times. They turn "if" passages into "type 2 works salvation" instead of properly interpreting them as confirmation passages. So what do YOU believe the Gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the Gospel? (Romans 1:16)
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I don't have any problem with this. I know there is the favor of the Spirit available to unbelievers when they are exposed to true believers. And so there is a kind of covering that they receive from being near us. Like when all the prisoners in the shipwreck with Paul were spared because of his presence. But to say they are literally sanctified by the blood of Christ is inaccurate. Being sanctified by the blood of Christ is salvation, not just the sanctification of an unbeliever for the sake of their association with a believer, like in the case of an unbelieving spouse.
18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’ - Acts 26:18
('Faith in me' being a reference to faith in the blood of Christ, or course.)
Sanctification by faith in the blood of Christ is a far different thing than the unbeliever being declared clean by God. Which, as I'm pointing out, can not include fake believers being declared clean in the church as mailmandan is suggesting.
If fake believers were somehow made clean (sanctified) by God for association with the congregation Paul would not command us to separate them from the body of believers for the sake of the purity of the body. They aren't clean. They are leaven in the body which needs to be removed. They are in no way sanctified by God to be among us. But that is what mailmandan is suggesting in order to make the passage below not mean true sanctified, saved believers will be damned along with the unbelievers if they trample on the blood of Christ in unbelief.
29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? - Hebrews 10:29
As I'm showing, there is no such thing as a willfully sinning fake believer sanctified by God for association with the church. Doesn't exist. So the verse can't mean what he is saying it means.
18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’ - Acts 26:18
('Faith in me' being a reference to faith in the blood of Christ, or course.)
Sanctification by faith in the blood of Christ is a far different thing than the unbeliever being declared clean by God. Which, as I'm pointing out, can not include fake believers being declared clean in the church as mailmandan is suggesting.
If fake believers were somehow made clean (sanctified) by God for association with the congregation Paul would not command us to separate them from the body of believers for the sake of the purity of the body. They aren't clean. They are leaven in the body which needs to be removed. They are in no way sanctified by God to be among us. But that is what mailmandan is suggesting in order to make the passage below not mean true sanctified, saved believers will be damned along with the unbelievers if they trample on the blood of Christ in unbelief.
29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? - Hebrews 10:29
As I'm showing, there is no such thing as a willfully sinning fake believer sanctified by God for association with the church. Doesn't exist. So the verse can't mean what he is saying it means.
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The interesting thing being, Paul says if you do get circumcised after the manner of Moses you cannot be saved.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. - Galatians 5:2
It's funny how it's being argued here that the Galatians 'kind of, sorta, could be, maybe' law keeping does not condemn them to hell, but the mere hint of a believer's law keeping in this forum will get them condemned to hell as a works salvationist in an instant.
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. - Galatians 5:2
It's funny how it's being argued here that the Galatians 'kind of, sorta, could be, maybe' law keeping does not condemn them to hell, but the mere hint of a believer's law keeping in this forum will get them condemned to hell as a works salvationist in an instant.
I believe we have, as Christians, a responsibility to the covenant we are in. I just don't think it's the Gospel of salvation, and I don't think it should be brought up outside the context of an individual's, or even a churches, struggle with sin.
Can we or should we point out some of the larger issues of our time is sinful? Yes... within its own context. Furthermore we have an obligation to. Christianity isnt a free for all.
But it looks different and sounds different than threads like this. Threads like this don't point to something particular that someone or a body may be struggling with, they just say works or your not saved.
On one level your right, if there isn't any change in someone's life or heart and they were fairly prolific sinners before they were saved and nothings changed, then maybe their confession of faith was something they only paid lip service to.
On the other hand may be they weren't horrible people so there may not have been these major differences to point to.
It's easy for someone like me, or like Paul the Apostle, to point to fundamental changes at the moment of salvation, but others? Maybe not so much, and I think we have to be cognizant of the fact that fundamental changes may be less obvious in many people.
Therefore, works isn't something we can use as a gauge, but rather, faith is. Are we hanging on to the promises for dear life? Or are we hanging on to self? Since self doesn't save, we must hang on to faith and trust in Christ, and that is a fundamental change that is in every Christian who belongs to Christ.
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Pretty close in line with what I've been saying.
I've been talking about the continuance of faith in Christ in order to be saved when he returns.
Not the doing of righteous works to earn salvation when he returns.
But people keep hearing my argument as 'you have to work to earn your salvation'.
Which is quite annoying, actually.
But I understand there are doctrines out there that teach that even if you have to continue to have faith in order to be saved you are earning your salvation by what you do.
But anyway, yes, ultimately, faith in Christ will show up in some change of behavior in a person. And I agree that change will be relative to where that person was when they got saved. And I do think its fair to argue that if you don't have works of righteousness when Jesus comes back you will not be saved when Jesus comes back. But I prefer to address if from the angle of if you don't continue in your faith in Christ with a change in your works as the evidence of that faith, you won't be saved when Jesus comes back.
I've been talking about the continuance of faith in Christ in order to be saved when he returns.
Not the doing of righteous works to earn salvation when he returns.
But people keep hearing my argument as 'you have to work to earn your salvation'.
Which is quite annoying, actually.
But I understand there are doctrines out there that teach that even if you have to continue to have faith in order to be saved you are earning your salvation by what you do.
But anyway, yes, ultimately, faith in Christ will show up in some change of behavior in a person. And I agree that change will be relative to where that person was when they got saved. And I do think its fair to argue that if you don't have works of righteousness when Jesus comes back you will not be saved when Jesus comes back. But I prefer to address if from the angle of if you don't continue in your faith in Christ with a change in your works as the evidence of that faith, you won't be saved when Jesus comes back.
It sounds like that is as close to coming to the truth as you will get.
It's your argument that is inaccurate. See post #685.
You still just DON'T GET IT and those who drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul (vs. 39) were never sanctified "set apart" as genuine believers (who believed to the saving of the soul) but were "set apart" as professing believers/active participants in the Hebrew Christian community of genuine believers. Those who drew back to perdition did not "temporarily" believe to the saving of the soul either, which is just NOSAS smoke and mirrors. Feel free to go back and read post #19 until the truth finally sinks in - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/
Hebrews 10:10 - By this will WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.
Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering He has perfected FOR ALL TIME THOSE who are sanctified.
Does that permanent or temporary? It's permanent for genuine believers, but not for those with spurious faith who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul. (vs. 39)
I guess you will just have to live with your contradiction in Hebrews 10:29. Whether you like it or not, there are genuine Christians and there "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are "make" believers.
In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle shows willful, habitual continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). Another contradiction that you will have to live with. *You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.*
It's your argument that is inaccurate. See post #685.
You still just DON'T GET IT and those who drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul (vs. 39) were never sanctified "set apart" as genuine believers (who believed to the saving of the soul) but were "set apart" as professing believers/active participants in the Hebrew Christian community of genuine believers. Those who drew back to perdition did not "temporarily" believe to the saving of the soul either, which is just NOSAS smoke and mirrors. Feel free to go back and read post #19 until the truth finally sinks in - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/
Hebrews 10:10 - By this will WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.
Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering He has perfected FOR ALL TIME THOSE who are sanctified.
Does that permanent or temporary? It's permanent for genuine believers, but not for those with spurious faith who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul. (vs. 39)
I guess you will just have to live with your contradiction in Hebrews 10:29. Whether you like it or not, there are genuine Christians and there "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are "make" believers.
In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle shows willful, habitual continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). Another contradiction that you will have to live with. *You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.*
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