Apostasy 101

[Grandpa]

Show me where it says that.


All true for the present tense believer, not the former believer.
Sheep will never perish. That's why you should continue to be a sheep.

There is no such thing as a former believer.

All there is is a person who had an intellectual "understanding" of who they thought Christ was. People can walk away from that intellectual understanding.

A believer cannot walk away from his belief. Once you are shown who Christ is and you receive Salvation you can't un-know or un-see or un-hear or lose Salvation.

But someone who is coming to Christ, and thinks they can lose their salvation and thinks they must earn His Grace, doesn't quite know who Christ is yet and should be warned to NOT discontinue their path but stick with it.

 

[Judges1318]

No. Genuine believers can in no way stop believing in Christ.

What they can do is become confused by false prophets and do the works of an unbeliever. For a time.

But when correction comes they will understand and be corrected.


Otherwise, what is the point of the correction to begin with?

I think this is a good argument. But it depends on the depth to which you have embraced and retained the word of God in your heart that determines the extent to which you will potentially respond to God's correction. So I think it is incorrect to say every true believer will without exception respond and come back from unbelief. There are weak believers and there are strong believers.

Surety of persevering in the faith comes from the kind of heart you have, not from the surety of a osas doctrine. The Parable of the Sower shows us that it is the 4th type of soil that perseveres. Only people with 4th kind of soil hearts can begin to make any boast of never falling away.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I agree. Being caught in a besetting sin that requires God's discipline in and of itself doesn't mean salvation will be lost.
The sin that stems from, or leads to a denial of Christ in unbelief is what will cause a person to be in danger of losing their salvation.

That's what this passage means:

If we disown him, he will also disown us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
2 Timothy 2:12-13

God will remain faithful to the struggling, faithless, but still believing, part of his body.
But he will disown the part of the body that disowns Him.
Christ has no obligation to keep the person who is now no longer part of his body because of unbelief.

As Paul says in Romans 11:20, what we are to fear is being cut out of the tree because of unbelief, not because we haven't got our act together yet. Though we are to resist the hardening of the heart to unbelief through the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), which I think is the message the church needs to hear at this present time. The message of repentance and obedience has been lost in an ear tickling and false message of 'once saved always saved'.

hey, my last post to you was my last post in this thread. I was very polite, and I hope you will be also..

any response I would bring, will cause others to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and I won't, I can't, be a party to such a thing.

May God bless you.

These things here seem to go on with no end, and I have no intent of devolving things now. I said all I need to say.

 

[Judges1318]

There is no such thing as a former believer.

The Galatians were genuinely saved, Spirit filled believers.
They stopped believing in Christ and went back to the law for justification.

All there is is a person who had an intellectual "understanding" of who they thought Christ was. People can walk away from that intellectual understanding.

The letter to the Galatians affirms that they were genuine believers with the Spirit of God, not just intellectual believers void of the Spirit. And they fell away.

A believer cannot walk away from his belief. Once you are shown who Christ is and you receive Salvation you can't un-know or un-see or un-hear or lose Salvation.

The Galatians fell away from faith in Christ. They did in fact 'unsee' what Paul had shown them.

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. - Galatians 3:1

They 'un-saw what Paul had shown them and went back to the law for justification.

But someone who is coming to Christ, and thinks they can lose their salvation and thinks they must earn His Grace, doesn't quite know who Christ is yet and should be warned to NOT discontinue their path but stick with it.

Why is thinking you can lose your salvation always instantly equated with thinking you have to earn your salvation?
I believe that a person can lose their salvation, not because you have to earn it, but because you have to keep believing to remain saved. That's not a works gospel.

 

[Grandpa]

I think this is a good argument. But it depends on the depth to which you have embraced and retained the word of God in your heart that determines the extent to which you will potentially respond to God's correction. So I think it is incorrect to say every true believer will without exception respond and come back from unbelief. There are weak believers and there are strong believers.

Surety of persevering in the faith comes from the kind of heart you have, not from the surety of a osas doctrine. The Parable of the Sower shows us that it is the 4th type of soil that perseveres. Only people with 4th kind of soil hearts can begin to make any boast of never falling away.

There is no boasting.

It is God who leads the believer to Christ. A believer will go through ALL the stages of soil "preparation".

The secret is that it is God who prepares the soil and not men. But you only know that AFTER you are saved.

In that way it is a "path" to Christ. Stay on the "narrow" path. Which is impossible in your own understanding. Only God can lead you on this narrow path.


When people first read the bible and think they understand what is "required" of them they think they must do the works of salvation.

After a person comes to Christ and is Saved they realize that all of those "requirements" are Gifts of God and could never be attained to the level of Salvation in the first place.


Its the difference between work and rest. Faith and unbelief.

 

[Judges1318]

But someone who is coming to Christ, and thinks they can lose their salvation and thinks they must earn His Grace, doesn't quite know who Christ is yet and should be warned to NOT discontinue their path but stick with it.

Or else what?

 

[Grandpa]

The Galatians were genuinely saved, Spirit filled believers.
They stopped believing in Christ and went back to the law for justification.

They didn't stop believing in Christ.

They started to believe the false prophets that IN ADDITION to Christ, they needed the law as well

The letter to the Galatians affirms that they were genuine believers with the Spirit of God, not just intellectual believers void of the Spirit. And they fell away.

They didn't fall away. They were being led down a false path.

If they had fallen away then they couldn't be re-newed to repentance, right? So there would be no point in trying to show them the True Path.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Galatians fell away from faith in Christ. They did in fact 'unsee' what Paul had shown them.

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. - Galatians 3:1

They 'un-saw what Paul had shown them and went back to the law for justification.

That's what I was explaining.

A person can walk away from an intellectual understanding.

Once they are shown Salvation they cannot un-see or un-know or un-believe.

Why is thinking you can lose your salvation always instantly equated with thinking you have to earn your salvation?
I believe that a person can lose their salvation, not because you have to earn it, but because you have to keep believing to remain saved. That's not a works gospel.

Salvation isn't something you earned to begin with. It was given as a gift.

So to say you must then earn salvation after it was given as a gift is kind of silly.

Which is what you ARE saying when you say you did not keep the requirements of Salvation and therefore you have lost it.

 

[Grandpa]

Or else what?

Or else they will become one of the many called but not chosen. I assume.

Possibly they are in one of the soil stages that is not conducive to TRUE BELIEF. Still need a little work.

 

[Judges1318]

They didn't stop believing in Christ.

They started to believe the false prophets that IN ADDITION to Christ, they needed the law as well

Uh, that's not believing in what Paul taught them anymore.

They didn't fall away. They were being led down a false path.

No, Paul plainly said they fell away:

4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. - Galatians 5:4

If they had fallen away then they couldn't be re-newed to repentance, right? So there would be no point in trying to show them the True Path.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Galatians shows us that God leaves the door open for a while for the ex-believer to come back. And I'm confident he does that based on the particular situation and stage of growth of the person who has fallen away. As you should well know, God is not a legalist. So don't try to portray him as one. He is merciful and long suffering.

That's what I was explaining.

A person can walk away from an intellectual understanding.

Once they are shown Salvation they cannot un-see or un-know or un-believe.

I just showed you that 1) the Galatians were genuinely saved, not just intellectually saved, and 2) they 'un-saw' the gospel that Paul had shown them and by which they were saved.

Salvation isn't something you earned to begin with. It was given as a gift.

So to say you must then earn salvation after it was given as a gift is kind of silly.

I agree, but what's that got to do with what I'm saying?
I'm not saying salvation is earned by works.

Which is what you ARE saying when you say you did not keep the requirements of Salvation and therefore you have lost it.

How is keeping the requirement to believe in order to be saved a works gospel?

 

[Judges1318]

Or else they will become one of the many called but not chosen. I assume.

Possibly they are in one of the soil stages that is not conducive to TRUE BELIEF. Still need a little work.

Nope, Paul plainly shows us they had received the Spirit:

2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a 4Have you experienced b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? - Galatians 3:2-5

They are in fact genuinely saved.
Please don't make these plain words not really mean what they say.

 

[Grandpa]

How is keeping the requirement to believe in order to be saved a works gospel?

Do you hear yourself????

How is keeping the REQUIREMENT to believe in order to be saved a works gospel?


You didn't keep any REQUIREMENTS in order to be given Salvation.

If you received Salvation without those REQUIREMENTS then how do you lose Salvation by NOT KEEPING THE REQUIREMENTS you never kept to begin with?


I'm hoping that even though you don't understand your bible maybe you will understand pure logic?

 

[Grandpa]

Nope, Paul plainly shows us they had received the Spirit:

2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a 4Have you experienced b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? - Galatians 3:2-5

They are in fact genuinely saved.
Please don't make these plain words not really mean what they say.

This should definitely convince a REAL Christian that the Gift of God is the means of continuing their walk with Christ and their Perfection and not REQUIREMENTS they think they can work at.

If they had received the Spirit then they will recognize this FACT.

If they have not then they still have work to do in order to come to Christ and be given eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[Judges1318]

Do you hear yourself????

How is keeping the REQUIREMENT to believe in order to be saved a works gospel?

The question here is are you listening to yourself?
Is faith somehow not a requirement to be saved?

You didn't keep any REQUIREMENTS in order to be given Salvation.

Yeah I did.
I placed my trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of my sins as a requirement to be saved.
Didn't you?

If you received Salvation without those REQUIREMENTS then how do you lose Salvation by NOT KEEPING THE REQUIREMENTS you never kept to begin with?

No, the question you should be asking is, 'if you received salvation based on the requirement of faith in Christ, how do you continue to have salvation if you no longer are keeping the requirement to be saved?'

I'm hoping that even though you don't understand your bible maybe you will understand pure logic?

What's not logical about 'since you are saved by believing in Christ, you can stop being saved by no longer believing in Christ'?
I'm only using the same logic you use when you say, 'since salvation is not by works, you can not become unsaved by works'.

 

[Grandpa]

The question here is are you listening to yourself?
Is faith somehow not a requirement to be saved?


Yeah I did.
I placed my trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of my sins as a requirement to be saved.
Didn't you?


No, the question you should be asking is, 'if you received salvation based on the requirement of faith in Christ, how do you continue to have salvation if you no longer are keeping the requirement to be saved?'


What's not logical about 'since you are saved by believing in Christ, you can stop being saved by no longer believing in Christ'?
I'm only using the same logic you use when you say, 'since salvation is not by works, you can not become unsaved by works'.

I see.

You placed your faith in Christ and so He basically owed you salvation.

So, of course you could lose that salvation if you don't keep Christ indebted to you. By your faith.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[Judges1318]

I see.

You placed your faith in Christ and so He basically owed you salvation.

Show me the scripture where it says believing in Christ is a work for which payment is owed and I will show you where it says it is not.

 

[Judges1318]

So, of course you could lose that salvation if you don't keep Christ indebted to you. By your faith.

"...we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand." - Romans 5:1

Faith is what grants a person gracious access to the forgiveness of God. Stop having faith and you lose access to Christ's completed, but ongoing, ministry of forgiveness in heaven for you.

 

[Chris1975]

Hebrews 3 and 4

Hebrew 3
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
- No once off belief. Continual belief.

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”
- Paul does a comparison here between those in Israel who rebelled against God (v8-11) and a warning to the church (next verses 12-15) to not fall into the same condition. Israel failed to enter God's rest. This doesn't refer only to the promised land, but rather refers to everlasting life (See Hebrews 4-8-10)

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

-These are corollary verses to Hebrews 10v25-26 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:
- No once off belief. Continual belief.

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
-Church, we have been delivered from spiritual Egypt

17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
-God is angry with those who sin. Both under the old covenant and those who choose to do so under the new.

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
-Unbelief and Disobedience have equivalence. Obedience comes from faith. Disobedience comes from Unbelief.
-You say you have faith? Are you living in obedience?

 

[Chris1975]

Hebrews 4

4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
- Paul writing to the church. Let's rephrase: Since the promise of everlasting life exists, let us (the church, Paul included) fear, lest any of you (those in the church, of which he does not consider himself as one of that seem to be coming short of it) seem to have come short of it - the grace you think you have you don't because of unbelief, because of disobedience (see Hebrews 3v18-19).

2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
-Paul refers back to “them” meaning Israel who fell in the wilderness. Do we so easily forget Hebrews 3, as to the reason for their fall? Disobedience. Disobedience as a result of no faith in the Word of God. Hebrews 3v18-19

3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
-This talks to a seventh day rest - that is - eternal salvation to those who believe.
-Yet God says that there are those who WILL NOT enter that rest. Who are these? We will see in the next few verses (hint: it is the same behavioural traits as Israel of old)

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

• The same claim and conditions are now given to the Church as what was given to Israel.
• Will the church follow in the same footsteps of disobedience as Israel? Will they harden their hearts? Or will the church hear His voice? Will SOME be disqualified because of disobedience (v6), or will you heed His voice (v7).

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.

• Proof that the rest spoken about by God is not the promised land which was subdued by Joshua, but rather another day in future. It talks of the eternal rest (salvation).

9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

• Salvation

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
-in case you have disagreed up to this point with the analysis, then verse 11 above summarises what I have been saying very concisely. This is written TO THE CHURCH. The CHURCH needs to take the same heed that they do not fall into disobedience. I will highlight the word again for the hard of hearing. DISOBEDIENCE.

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
-Under Grace our thoughts, emotions and intentions are laid bare. We have the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. Do not harden your heart to His leading. If your thoughts are wayward then REPENT of these and receive cleansing.

13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
-Repentance: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/repentance-101.189737/

14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
- No once off belief. Continual belief.

15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

• Jesus overcame sin in the flesh. You can tap into his Grace.

16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

• If you are struggling, go to Him. Ask and He will freely give you the Grace needed to overcome any and every area that you yield to Him. But you must be prepared to give it to Him (and not hold onto it). That’s repentance.

 

[Grandpa]

Show me the scripture where it says believing in Christ is a work for which payment is owed and I will show you where it says it is not.

Didn't you say that you had faith in Christ and He saved you for it?

And if you stop then He will take it back?

 

[Grandpa]

"...we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand." - Romans 5:1

Faith is what grants a person gracious access to the forgiveness of God. Stop having faith and you lose access to Christ's completed, but ongoing, ministry of forgiveness in heaven for you.

That is true for a person who has not been to Christ yet and has not received Rest, has not been born again.

But for a Christian who has been to Christ and received Rest there is nothing that can separate them from His Love. He will never leave nor forsake them. He knows these and gives them eternal life.