Apostasy 101

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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,377
466
83
I'm going to take that as a "no"...
Simple. Matthew 5v48 is answered by 1 John 1v7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Then we are perfect. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.

However,
1 John 1v6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,206
2,412
113
Simple. Matthew 5v48 is answered by 1 John 1v7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Then we are perfect. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.

However,
1 John 1v6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
No. This just shows your ongoing confusion.

You are stuck on thinking that YOUR WORK fulfills the Righteousness required of God.

Matthew 5:48 is answered by Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

It takes a lot of labour and its a heavy load to be Perfect like our Father in Heaven is Perfect.

Matthew 11:28 is further explained in John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


This is where the fruit of obedience and righteousness is produced. Not a requirement that must be met but a gift that is given by Christ.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,052
2,652
113
You are stuck on thinking that YOUR WORK fulfills the Righteousness required of God.
Strawman.

I think you know that Christ1975 does not believe that He is saved by work. Is this the last and only straw you have left to muddy the waters with?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,206
2,412
113
Strawman.

I think you know that Christ1975 does not believe that He is saved by work. Is this the last and only straw you have left to muddy the waters with?
I think you are not understanding what strawman means.

I'm not the one manufacturing these requirements that must be met. And if they aren't met then Salvation is lost.

This is Chris1975 that is showing this.


And I definitely do NOT know that Chris does not believe that he is saved by his work. Its sure pointing that way. Of course it is really easy to say "I don't believe I am saved by my work" but then go on to list all the things you have to do in order to gain salvation.
 
Mar 14, 2011
68,741
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No. This just shows your ongoing confusion.

You are stuck on thinking that YOUR WORK fulfills the Righteousness required of God.

Matthew 5:48 is answered by Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

It takes a lot of labour and its a heavy load to be Perfect like our Father in Heaven is Perfect.

Matthew 11:28 is further explained in John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


This is where the fruit of obedience and righteousness is produced. Not a requirement that must be met but a gift that is given by Christ.
You can not read his posts and think he does not preach works. That’s impossible
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,052
2,652
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You can not read his posts and think he does not preach works. That’s impossible
It is clear that many OSASers have retreated far back to this line of 'defense'. Perhaps the truth has won out and they are just trying to save face and cover tail by erecting a doctrinally unsound STRAWMAN that doesn't understand salvation by grace and faith, then accusing all those that refuse to follow OSAS as being that STRAWMAN. I will let you have the last word here if you think it will help you.
 
Mar 14, 2011
68,741
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It is clear that many OSASers have retreated far back to this line of 'defense'. Perhaps the truth has won out and they are just trying to save face and cover tail by erecting a doctrinally unsound STRAWMAN that doesn't understand salvation by grace and faith, then accusing all those that refuse to follow OSAS as being that STRAWMAN. I will let you have the last word here if you think it will help you.
Naw. I do not need the last word

This post is the perfect example of a straw man. As it has nothing to do with what I said but is just a. Well a strawman

You showed it well and for that I thank you
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
It is clear that many OSASers have retreated far back to this line of 'defense'. Perhaps the truth has won out and they are just trying to save face and cover tail by erecting a doctrinally unsound STRAWMAN that doesn't understand salvation by grace and faith, then accusing all those that refuse to follow OSAS as being that STRAWMAN. I will let you have the last word here if you think it will help you.

well confusing working for your salvation with actually BEING one who is a 'doer of the word' is par for the course for quite a few it seems

it will not matter how many times you agree that salvation is by faith, the minute you want to put that faith into action you are going to be accused for working for your salvation

then you will be told that yes, you should act as becomes a believer, so confusion takes over

I don't get into this outrageously detrimental debate because it gets real ugly

and it doesn't have to
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
The deceiver is coming and many have been taught that they are saved forever, no matter what, so why worry? But God has a plan and if you are not aware of what is coming, you will be deceived. It is the EXACT opposite of wanting others to lose salvation. It is sending out a warning that "believing in God doesn't make you Teflon" as far as the coming deception is concerned.

already here it would seem

I just read James again this am and there is no way you can walk away from that book thinking you do not play a part

and no one says, including James, that you work for salvation

basically James is saying your actions state what you really believe

not hard to understand at all
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
You trip yourself up over your own words. For if these people in your point number 4 above are the unbelievers, then how could they fall from GRACE.

See.

he recently made a thread in which he stated James was not written to believers

so ...
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,377
466
83
well confusing working for your salvation with actually BEING one who is a 'doer of the word' is par for the course for quite a few it seems

it will not matter how many times you agree that salvation is by faith, the minute you want to put that faith into action you are going to be accused for working for your salvation

then you will be told that yes, you should act as becomes a believer, so confusion takes over

I don't get into this outrageously detrimental debate because it gets real ugly

and it doesn't have to
Its a fleshly gospel. You can have a superficial belief in Christ as saviour (but not as Lord). You don't need to repent because you repented sometime at conversion (if at all). You don't need to CONTINUE to BELIEVE because you can throw the law-book at God and demand that He fulfills the promise of salvation as a free gift. Also obtained at some point around conversion. No cross for you. No dying to self. No heeding the calls to holiness (because that would be works). Denying the plain word of God when confronted with it. Ignore the biblical warnings to believers....and the list goes on and on. Yet they comfort themselves that they have the truth, whilst missing all the above. Instead of humbling themselves and sincerely going to God in prayer and asking Him to show them the truth, whatever the outcome. If change is needed, then make the change. But yet they walk the tightrope. And the clock is running out.

Who cares if you have been vigorously defending what you thought to be the true gospel for the last few years. If God (the Holy Spirit) shows you the error, why not embrace the truth. Forget what's behind. Welcome the word of God. The entirety of scripture. The scriptural calls to holiness are BEAUTIFUL and ENCOURAGING. Yes, at times fearful (The Fear of the Lord is the Beginning of Knowledge, Understanding and Wisdom). But these Fear not the Lord. And we see these three things missing.....Knowledge, Understanding and Wisdom. And this comes through so evidently in these discussions.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Its a fleshly gospel. You can have a superficial belief in Christ as saviour (but not as Lord). You don't need to repent because you repented sometime at conversion (if at all). You don't need to CONTINUE to BELIEVE because you can throw the law-book at God and demand that He fulfills the promise of salvation as a free gift. Also obtained at some point around conversion. No cross for you. No dying to self. No heeding the calls to holiness (because that would be works). Denying the plain word of God when confronted with it. Ignore the biblical warnings to believers....and the list goes on and on. Yet they comfort themselves that they have the truth, whilst missing all the above. Instead of humbling themselves and sincerely going to God in prayer and asking Him to show them the truth, whatever the outcome. If change is needed, then make the change. But yet they walk the tightrope. And the clock is running out.

Who cares if you have been vigorously defending what you thought to be the true gospel for the last few years. If God (the Holy Spirit) shows you the error, why not embrace the truth. Forget what's behind. Welcome the word of God. The entirety of scripture. The scriptural calls to holiness are BEAUTIFUL and ENCOURAGING. Yes, at times fearful (The Fear of the Lord is the Beginning of Knowledge, Understanding and Wisdom). But these Fear not the Lord. And we see these three things missing.....Knowledge, Understanding and Wisdom. And this comes through so evidently in these discussions.

we have all those flavors offered around here

now I am not a 'Lordship Salvation' a la Monsieur MacArthur, but as Jesus said, do not call me Lord if you do not do the things I tell you

some will tell you that we do not have to accept Christ's words anymore because he was under law at the time and that is all Old Covenant stuff.

and this is not to say that the same people do not try to live as they should, but it is head banging confusing to read some of the comments that pass for biblical doctrine

and you see if you even wish to discuss anything to the contrary, you are almost immediately labelled a 'works salvationist'

I think the Calvinists are worse though;)
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
759
113
I'm not the one manufacturing these requirements that must be met. And if they aren't met then Salvation is lost.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them for this is the law and the prophets.
Do you do, or do you not do it this way? Is this a requirement? (And I am not asking if it is about doing it in love, I am asking if it is about DOING).

This obviously has nothing to do with RECEIVING the GIFT of Salvation, because it is through that gift that you DESIRE to do the will of God.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat
Who are the many being spoken of here?

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Is this "the narrow way" a requirement? Do you think God considers the "narrow way" consisting of more than "love" our way?

Do you believe there are evil spirits in the world whos ONLY MISSION, it to seduce you to TURN AWAY from, or BE DECEIVED by?

Where does this fit in? How is it you phrase the doing of works of God?
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
759
113
Matthew 5:48 is answered by Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
It takes a lot of labour and its a heavy load to be Perfect like our Father in Heaven is Perfect.{QUOTE}
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
To place a burden upon, to load one with a burden (of rites and unwarranted precepts) 'heaven laden' (with the burdensome requirements of the Mosaic law and of tradition, and with the consciousness of sin) to overburden with ceremony (or spiritual anxiety) 5412 phortizo

And no, it is no longer hard as we have the Spirit, we have repentance, we have forgiveness, we can move on and let go and move towards being more holy ourselves with each change of our inner man

I am not asking about FOR SALVATION, BUT ONCE WE HAVE RECEIVED THE GIFT, the SALVATION already given, the already walking on the narrow path part.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also and greater works than these shall he do because I go unto my Father. (A requirement for reward?)
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. (A requirement of any sorts or not?)

I am sure you don't consider the loving of God with all your heart and mind and strength a "work", do you? or loving your neighbor as yourself? or not murdering someone? etc. You don't believe Jesus fulfilled these laws, do you? And if so, how?

Matthew 11:28 is further explained in John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit for without me ye can do nothing.
He is saying that " WITH HIM" not only can we but we are supposed to bring forth much fruit. That is works, is it not? From these works comes reward, doesn't it?


Can you see a problem? Super simple clear straight forward verses being discussed as to what they mean. Holds us all back from moving forward. Salvation is a gift, all good works for reward. Stay on the narrow path you made it, don't you didn't. It is all common sense and logic yet somehow, some way it has been turned into confusion. Wonder who started that. No.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
759
113
I absolutely preach works, though the works I preach have nothing to do with God gracing me with salvation. Well, for one, it would be impossible to be doing any works for God if I had NOT ALREADY received the gift. And two, it would not do any good to work for something He had already given. It's just common sense to me.

So, for the record yes, I believe that the gift of salvation can be lost or thrown away. And I believe we are commanded to do works as sons of God. I also believe we must keep and obey commands given us. I don't believe it is hard at all, because of the holy Spirit and my loving Him back just make for a peaceful and joyous life. And though I don't believe there is some minimum amount you must do or lose their salvation, I do believe those who don't do much will be very naked in the future.

I believe those who lose their salvation lose it only because THEY CHOSE to. I also believe He is long suffering and gives a person every chance, even corrections to guide them back but at some point, the point He feels he is being mocked, then that is it, He is done and that is why we were given this verse
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

God gives the eternal gift into our hands. If we then QUIT, then He is just going to say I never knew you. (Blotted out) No doctrine gonna change that for me.

Whomsoever WOULD, not Whomsoever WOULD NOT, and that isn't on God. He isn't going to MAKE us do anything. If that were true then what would be the point. He would have just assigned everyone their positions and went from there. Free will.

Follow Gods way and you are assured, not a single doubt.

Do it Gods way OR choose the way of the world.

We are straight up told the Word falls upon all different kinds of ground. Some doesn't take root, some does but dries up, some go all the way. God offered the gift and some didn't cherish it.

Satan followed God, and then he chose not to. God didn't change. Satan did. God no longer owes ANYTHING to him no matter what God may have ever promised because SATAN went from loving God to hating him and killing Christ. It was Satan who threw it all away. Satan probably believed in some doctrine that told him God could never do that.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived God is not mocked for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. (GOD remains the same)
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

The bible isn't written to "unbelievers", they can't even understand it, no it is written to us, and
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

No matter how many people say "you are just a works salvationist".
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
759
113
we have all those flavors offered around here

now I am not a 'Lordship Salvation' a la Monsieur MacArthur, but as Jesus said, do not call me Lord if you do not do the things I tell you

some will tell you that we do not have to accept Christ's words anymore because he was under law at the time and that is all Old Covenant stuff.

and this is not to say that the same people do not try to live as they should, but it is head banging confusing to read some of the comments that pass for biblical doctrine

and you see if you even wish to discuss anything to the contrary, you are almost immediately labelled a 'works salvationist'

I think the Calvinists are worse though;)
I agree, but this is about the smiley comments and is there any chance that we will get them?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
4,246
731
113
It is clear that many OSASers have retreated far back to this line of 'defense'. Perhaps the truth has won out and they are just trying to save face and cover tail by erecting a doctrinally unsound STRAWMAN that doesn't understand salvation by grace and faith, then accusing all those that refuse to follow OSAS as being that STRAWMAN. I will let you have the last word here if you think it will help you.
Actually most if not all of those so called OSASers here, believe that James ch2 saying, that good works must be shown after you believe, in order for you to be truly saved.

There is not really significant differences between that, and those who believe that you need believe and do works, in order to be saved.

If B must follow A in order to show C, how is that different from saying you need A + B to get C?
 

Aerials1978

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2019
1,131
670
113
Actually most if not all of those so called OSASers here, believe that James ch2 saying, that good works must be shown after you believe, in order for you to be truly saved.

There is not really significant differences between that, and those who believe that you need believe and do works, in order to be saved.

If B must follow A in order to show C, how is that different from saying you need A + B to get C?
Works do not increase salvation. I will say if you lack works, you do not grow and produce good fruit. There is a chance that a person can fall back into their old ways if they are not examining themselves to see if they are still in the faith. The real question with ragards to works should be is “ Am I doing this because I love my neighbor and want to glorify God or am I doing this for my own self gratification.”?