Are denominations evil?
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Never said they were the only differences. We could also bring up the Belgic as well.
Hmm, the R.B. Church I got my feet wet in, the pastor feared one day the PaedoBaptists would once again persecute their anabaptist stance.
The dispensational distinctives are two.
1. A more literal approach to Scripture.
2. A distiction between Israel and the Church.
The caricature of dispys pouring over colored charts and timelines with 7 headed beasts is just plain ridiculous.
Hmm, the R.B. Church I got my feet wet in, the pastor feared one day the PaedoBaptists would once again persecute their anabaptist stance.
The dispensational distinctives are two.
1. A more literal approach to Scripture.
2. A distiction between Israel and the Church.
The caricature of dispys pouring over colored charts and timelines with 7 headed beasts is just plain ridiculous.
I voted they are evil, although I don't really fit your debate I think they are evil for different reasons, I am not moved by fundamentalism. They are also unavoidable, because people are people. Looks like you already made up your mind and have ideas you want to promote and are not really asking a question, so I won't elaborate.
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Haha...I don't think it is a caricature.
I started attending a church with a Reformed Baptist pastor, but the membership is not Reformed. He said the previous pastor was a KJV Only dispensationalist, and had a long timeline stretching all the way down a long hallway.
Concerning "literal approach to Scripture", I think you need to study how Jesus and the apostles used OT Scripture. Did they apply Scriptures pertaining to Israel to the Church, whether explicitly or implicitly?
For instance, does Peter call the Church a "kingdom of priests", and a prized possession, with an obvious allusion to Exodus 19, where it is talking about the Church?
By the way, I don't view their "literal approach" as being a good thing, nor do I view it as being a consistent application..because they themselves will recognize symbols and figurative speech when it doesn't conflict with their worldview. Yet they will level charges of "spiritualizing" or "allegorizing" when simple types and shadows/fulfillments are recognized by non-dispensationalists.
And, they commonly level charges of antiSemitism toward non-dispensationalists.
Let me give you an example, from Chosen Peoples Ministries..this guy deliberately tried to slam non-dispensationalists to a Jewish audience, and claims non-dispensationalists are anti-Semitic:
And this guy admits issues with their hermeneutics, in that types and shadows are valid:
Pay careful attention though..he claims believers are high priests and this is clearly false.
I started attending a church with a Reformed Baptist pastor, but the membership is not Reformed. He said the previous pastor was a KJV Only dispensationalist, and had a long timeline stretching all the way down a long hallway.
Concerning "literal approach to Scripture", I think you need to study how Jesus and the apostles used OT Scripture. Did they apply Scriptures pertaining to Israel to the Church, whether explicitly or implicitly?
For instance, does Peter call the Church a "kingdom of priests", and a prized possession, with an obvious allusion to Exodus 19, where it is talking about the Church?
By the way, I don't view their "literal approach" as being a good thing, nor do I view it as being a consistent application..because they themselves will recognize symbols and figurative speech when it doesn't conflict with their worldview. Yet they will level charges of "spiritualizing" or "allegorizing" when simple types and shadows/fulfillments are recognized by non-dispensationalists.
And, they commonly level charges of antiSemitism toward non-dispensationalists.
Let me give you an example, from Chosen Peoples Ministries..this guy deliberately tried to slam non-dispensationalists to a Jewish audience, and claims non-dispensationalists are anti-Semitic:
And this guy admits issues with their hermeneutics, in that types and shadows are valid:
Pay careful attention though..he claims believers are high priests and this is clearly false.
I think in one way Christians like Jews have a group set aside as priest to bring the gospel amongst the whole. So there is a kingdom of priest after the reformed order Melchedik. All Christian can become a member and be baptized with water to show their desire but being a Christian does not mean they are active members .
By the way, you really should examine your presuppositions.
For example, you can read Matthew and see that Matthew takes Scriptures applying to Israel and applies them to Jesus.
Matthew 2:14-15 4 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”
Hosea 11:1 1 When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
Why?
Jesus is true Israel.
And, Peter does the same thing for the Church when he takes Scriptures applying to Israel in Exodus 19 and alludes to them in his epistle.
Exodus 19:5-6 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”
1 Peter 2:9-10 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Why?
The Church, as Jesus' body, is True Israel.
It's really not hard to figure out that the Apostles believed in "covenant theology" because they take Scriptures applying to Israel and apply them to Jesus or the Church.
GK Beale and DA Carson wrote a long commentary where they examine every incidence where the NT quotes or alludes to the OT. It is on my reading list.
https://smile.amazon.com/Commentary...ed+in+the+new+testament&qid=1583315983&sr=8-2
Somehow I don't think many dispensationalists will be reading this.
For example, you can read Matthew and see that Matthew takes Scriptures applying to Israel and applies them to Jesus.
Matthew 2:14-15 4 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”
Hosea 11:1 1 When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
Why?
Jesus is true Israel.
And, Peter does the same thing for the Church when he takes Scriptures applying to Israel in Exodus 19 and alludes to them in his epistle.
Exodus 19:5-6 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”
1 Peter 2:9-10 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Why?
The Church, as Jesus' body, is True Israel.
It's really not hard to figure out that the Apostles believed in "covenant theology" because they take Scriptures applying to Israel and apply them to Jesus or the Church.
GK Beale and DA Carson wrote a long commentary where they examine every incidence where the NT quotes or alludes to the OT. It is on my reading list.
https://smile.amazon.com/Commentary...ed+in+the+new+testament&qid=1583315983&sr=8-2
Somehow I don't think many dispensationalists will be reading this.
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That would be the other Israel as Jacob before his born again conversion.
The name defines the person.
Genesis 32:27-29 (KJV) And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
As Jacob he had no God and therefore no power to prevail against flesh and blood.
He renamed his born again bride, Christian as the last name change. A befitting name for the chaste virgin bride the church . Literally with no other meaning added, meaning .Residents of the city of Christ a city prepared as His bride named after her founder, Christ.
Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch
No difference.
Christian = bride of Christ.
Israel = bride of Christ
The name defines the person.
Genesis 32:27-29 (KJV) And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
As Jacob he had no God and therefore no power to prevail against flesh and blood.
He renamed his born again bride, Christian as the last name change. A befitting name for the chaste virgin bride the church . Literally with no other meaning added, meaning .Residents of the city of Christ a city prepared as His bride named after her founder, Christ.
Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch
No difference.
Christian = bride of Christ.
Israel = bride of Christ
The church itself wasn't Reformed at the time.
I wasn't there as a member..I just started attending.
Actually the church isn't Reformed now...the pastor has only been there three years. He estimates 20% are Reformed, and he doesn't make an issue that they need to accept Reformed theology. Which is ok with me.
He told me that the previous pastor was a KJV Only dispensationalist. KJV Onlyism is popular amongst Independent Fundamentalist Baptists. I don't know if they tend to be dispensationalists or not. My guess is, yes....
I wasn't there as a member..I just started attending.
Actually the church isn't Reformed now...the pastor has only been there three years. He estimates 20% are Reformed, and he doesn't make an issue that they need to accept Reformed theology. Which is ok with me.
He told me that the previous pastor was a KJV Only dispensationalist. KJV Onlyism is popular amongst Independent Fundamentalist Baptists. I don't know if they tend to be dispensationalists or not. My guess is, yes....
Well, the first question I will ask is, how many times have you explained the gospel to people in the last five years?
Ask me the same question. I can say that I have presented the gospel to about 300 people in jail ministry. I personally gave books or pamphlets to 180 people, from my own resources. I kept detailed records so I didn't give the same person the same book twice.
And I am Reformed.
Why am I not doing it today?
Because non-Reformed people did everything they could to hinder my ministry. KJV Onlyists, charismatics, and non-Reformed prophecy nuts within the chaplain staff didn't like my straightforward presentation of the gospel. And, they didn't want me talking about eternal security, because they believe the prisoners would sin if they were told their salvation was secure if the person is a real believer. They hindered me in every way they could. I believe that the jail staff also had Christians who disagreed with my theology and harrassed me concerning giving good materials to people. I intend to get back into it in some manner.
But, I will ask you, how many have you presented the gospel to, personally, face to face (not online) in the last five years?
I will also add the fact that I don't think many non-Reformed people are really saved. They are encouraged to sign a prayer card or "pray a prayer"...and the content of the gospel message they hear is not sufficient for salvation. Some never hear anything about their sin, and are not encouraged to repent. At the very least, a knowledgeable Reformed person is going to discuss the law, sin, and the need for Christ and his sacrifice in the context of their personal sin.
Ask me the same question. I can say that I have presented the gospel to about 300 people in jail ministry. I personally gave books or pamphlets to 180 people, from my own resources. I kept detailed records so I didn't give the same person the same book twice.
And I am Reformed.
Why am I not doing it today?
Because non-Reformed people did everything they could to hinder my ministry. KJV Onlyists, charismatics, and non-Reformed prophecy nuts within the chaplain staff didn't like my straightforward presentation of the gospel. And, they didn't want me talking about eternal security, because they believe the prisoners would sin if they were told their salvation was secure if the person is a real believer. They hindered me in every way they could. I believe that the jail staff also had Christians who disagreed with my theology and harrassed me concerning giving good materials to people. I intend to get back into it in some manner.
But, I will ask you, how many have you presented the gospel to, personally, face to face (not online) in the last five years?
I will also add the fact that I don't think many non-Reformed people are really saved. They are encouraged to sign a prayer card or "pray a prayer"...and the content of the gospel message they hear is not sufficient for salvation. Some never hear anything about their sin, and are not encouraged to repent. At the very least, a knowledgeable Reformed person is going to discuss the law, sin, and the need for Christ and his sacrifice in the context of their personal sin.
That makes no sense.
The Church is true Israel because they have been united with Christ in faith.
I am not sure if you would understand the concept of union with Christ, though. I don't think many dispensationalists understand what union with Christ means, or they would not be dispensationalists.
If a person is united with faith, they possess Jesus' righteousness, as well as his inheritance. They are not cursed because of Christ's perfect obedience, which is credited to them due to their oneness with Christ.
The Church is true Israel because they have been united with Christ in faith.
I am not sure if you would understand the concept of union with Christ, though. I don't think many dispensationalists understand what union with Christ means, or they would not be dispensationalists.
If a person is united with faith, they possess Jesus' righteousness, as well as his inheritance. They are not cursed because of Christ's perfect obedience, which is credited to them due to their oneness with Christ.
I have no clue what you are saying.
Read the whole chapter. It says that Jews and Gentiles are united in Christ, and that the real believers are the commonwealth of Israel.
Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
Read the whole chapter. It says that Jews and Gentiles are united in Christ, and that the real believers are the commonwealth of Israel.
Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
Another thing I will add is that non-Reformed people are by far very ignorant compared to Reformed people. For instance, I doubt ten percent of them can defend the Trinity without using false arguments. I doubt ten percent of them understand union with Christ, which is the best summary of salvation.
Yet, Reformed people train their children to know core doctrines of Christianity through confessions and catechisms. Some children know more than most adults in non-Reformed churches.
I have been on both sides of the fence, by the way. I attended Baptist churches, Christian and Missionary Alliance Churches, Evangelical Free churches, and Calvary Chapel churches. I didn't learn very much that was meaningful in any of those except the Evangelical Free church, and it was not pure Reformed but had Reformed influences.
Emotionalism and cultural compromise affect non-Reformed churches and contaminate their ability to teach. Reformed churches are far less susceptible to this.
By the way, when I say emotionalism, I mean vapid, charismatic emotionalism and not the proper, passionate response to hearing solid spiritual truths. I have no issue with passionate worship accompanied by a solid exposition of God's word, but that is not typically what I've seen from non-Reformed churches. And, many churches are like children church...today's populace is lazy and doesn't try to understand the Bible at a deeper level. Not so with the Reformed, though.
Yet, Reformed people train their children to know core doctrines of Christianity through confessions and catechisms. Some children know more than most adults in non-Reformed churches.
I have been on both sides of the fence, by the way. I attended Baptist churches, Christian and Missionary Alliance Churches, Evangelical Free churches, and Calvary Chapel churches. I didn't learn very much that was meaningful in any of those except the Evangelical Free church, and it was not pure Reformed but had Reformed influences.
Emotionalism and cultural compromise affect non-Reformed churches and contaminate their ability to teach. Reformed churches are far less susceptible to this.
By the way, when I say emotionalism, I mean vapid, charismatic emotionalism and not the proper, passionate response to hearing solid spiritual truths. I have no issue with passionate worship accompanied by a solid exposition of God's word, but that is not typically what I've seen from non-Reformed churches. And, many churches are like children church...today's populace is lazy and doesn't try to understand the Bible at a deeper level. Not so with the Reformed, though.
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