Has nothing to do with OT laws and sacrifice it's simply means because Jesus was alive everything done was whike the OT and not the NT criteria was in effect. Baptism into Christ was part of the NT requirements for salvation and had nothing to do with the OT since Jesus was still aluvevwhen he forgave the thief and promised him paradise. The subject of baptism shouldn't even come into play as pertaining to the thief. Jesus forgave him no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry such as the adulterous woman. Did she have to have her sins removed by OT sacrifice rituals? No; Jesus simply had the power go forgive her, and likewise the thief.
Are gifts evidence of salvation?
- Thread starter Lamar
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
True indeed. The problem is the assumption injected into that text that Peter was allegedly speaking exclusively of water baptism. John said that his baptism of water was unto repentance, not salvation, especially when connected to what he said next, in that Christ baptizes with Spirit and fire. The latter is the entry into salvation, speaking on the basis of reason, if not written specifically and succinctly to the satisfaction of all.
How many here have had the latter baptism?
MM
How many here have had the latter baptism?
MM
Sorry. That is just too indifferent to many other elements we have already discussed. There is no magic in water. There is no spiritual mechanism in warer...if that is the baptism of which you are hinging your basis upon. John spoke of TWO baptisms while Yahshuah was still walking this earth in human form. That cup He passed was either the New Covenant, or it was not.
Please keep in mind that I speak of this topic in the sense of water baptism being a peripheral issue rather than central to salvation. If water were that magical, then Christ died for no other reason than to make water immersion that much more magical. I simply don't buy it. Given that the blood of Yahshuah is retroactive, that same Blood cleanses all who call upon His name, irrespective of being dunked in physical water. I was baptized with Spirit and fire, of which John spoke in his baptisms.
MM
Please keep in mind that I speak of this topic in the sense of water baptism being a peripheral issue rather than central to salvation. If water were that magical, then Christ died for no other reason than to make water immersion that much more magical. I simply don't buy it. Given that the blood of Yahshuah is retroactive, that same Blood cleanses all who call upon His name, irrespective of being dunked in physical water. I was baptized with Spirit and fire, of which John spoke in his baptisms.
MM
The baptism with fire is NOT what you think it is. It's the unquenchable fires of hell John is referring to. Read the entire context of Luke 3 and who he was referring to. Luke 3:17 tells you what the baptism of fire is.
17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Delving into the Greek, I found that simplistic explanation to be totaly erroneous. The Greek for "fire" in verse 11 compared to verse 12 are not the same fire. In 11 it is grammatically rooted in the Greek "baptizo", where in verse 12 it is grammatically roote in literal fire. This is where the jots and tittles come into play within the historic Greek manuscripts. This is where English translations can and do lead to error when looked upon with simplistic indifference to detail, to which reliance upon English translations fosters.
Just wanted to share with you some of what I have found in my initial digging into some greater depths, using Thayer's Greek Lexicon.
MM
Just wanted to share with you some of what I have found in my initial digging into some greater depths, using Thayer's Greek Lexicon.
MM
-
1
- Show all
John baptism was not about salvation???
New King James Version
John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Are you really reading the Bible? Be honest.
Here's a bonus:
New King James Version
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Look familiar?
Lamar
New King James Version
John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Are you really reading the Bible? Be honest.
Here's a bonus:
New King James Version
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Look familiar?
Lamar
Written in the abstract.
Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
Certainly not abstract.
Again, written in the abstract.
Acts 2:38
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Certainly not abstract.
Faith alone regeneration theology is based on abstract notions as well as being without an example.
Lamar
Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
Certainly not abstract.
Again, written in the abstract.
Acts 2:38
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Certainly not abstract.
Faith alone regeneration theology is based on abstract notions as well as being without an example.
Lamar
I’m a cessationist so…
1 Corinthians 13:1-9
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1 Corinthians 13:1-9
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
-
1
- Show all
Attacking interpretational methods that are well established within the scholastic realm of hermeneutics and lingual clarity is not a good tact, and my application of lingual studies are not an attack against translators. What is sad are the people out there who don't want to dig into the manuscript wording in order to dredge up the precious gems and metals of understanding. Even translators admit the weaknesses that are inherent in the task of translating from one language to another. Even the King James translators admitted they did not consider that version to be superior to all others.
And, yes, I was indeed kidding when I quipped about something said by another to be old testament. I regard all of scripture to be of value for instruction, correction, exhortation and rebuke.
Also, transliterating my posts into saying what was not at all consistent with my narrative is dishonest and underhanded. You may get giggles and snickers from some of your juvenile friends out there, but it fails to bolster your stance. Snide jabs, as opposed to reasonable and level-headed discussion, are not going to avail anything in your favor.
Generally speaking, if simpletons want to refuse acknowledging the fact that such words as "cleave" in English and in our Bibles has totally opposing definitions in the English language, then they do so at the expense to their own credibility.
The word "fire" in the discussion above is a case in point. Fire has many applications in English that are not exclusive to literal burning of material. You should know that, and if you personaly are not willing to explore the Greek in order to understand the obvious differences in definition, then you are free to settle into that rut, but that only speaks to your bias, not honest scholarship in an endeavor to understand the meaning within the text.
MM
And, yes, I was indeed kidding when I quipped about something said by another to be old testament. I regard all of scripture to be of value for instruction, correction, exhortation and rebuke.
Also, transliterating my posts into saying what was not at all consistent with my narrative is dishonest and underhanded. You may get giggles and snickers from some of your juvenile friends out there, but it fails to bolster your stance. Snide jabs, as opposed to reasonable and level-headed discussion, are not going to avail anything in your favor.
Generally speaking, if simpletons want to refuse acknowledging the fact that such words as "cleave" in English and in our Bibles has totally opposing definitions in the English language, then they do so at the expense to their own credibility.
The word "fire" in the discussion above is a case in point. Fire has many applications in English that are not exclusive to literal burning of material. You should know that, and if you personaly are not willing to explore the Greek in order to understand the obvious differences in definition, then you are free to settle into that rut, but that only speaks to your bias, not honest scholarship in an endeavor to understand the meaning within the text.
MM
Acts 2:17-18,‘And it shall be in the last days, says Elohim, that I shall pour out of My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams,and also on My male servants and on My female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy.