Are gifts evidence of salvation?
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The "gifts", those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10, have all ceased. The only so-called "gift" prevalent today is 'tongues', which is commonly nothing more than unscriptural, incoherent, babbling that no one understands. Your question and premise is therefore a moot point; salvation is not predicated upon the "gifts" listed in the aforementioned scripture. People are being deceived.
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I'll simplify it for you. Show me solid evidence of even one person with a true miraculous gift in operation today. Not stories, not "testimonies," not scriptural interpretations, but solid evidence. With all the claims of the miraculous today and with all the smart phones out there it should be very easy, if indeed there is anything genuine to find.
The bible 1 cor 13:8. Plus, the gifts, which are really, manifestations of the Spirit, became manifest by the laying on of the apostle's hands. They're all dead.
All of the following show the people were receiving the actual Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands:
Stephen was already a baptized believer, so according to Acts 2:38, he had already received the gift not gifts, which are the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit. It wasn't until they (the apostles) laid their hands on him, verse 6, that he was able to do the wonders as noted in verse 8
"5And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: 6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
8And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people."
Also to corroborate the fact that it was the laying on of the apostle's hands that enabled the gifts (manifestations of the Spirit, those listed in 1Cor 12:8-10), see below.
Acts 5:12
12And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
Acts 8:14-17
14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:18-19
18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:6
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
2 Tim 1:6-7
6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Pretty clear when you look at ALL the pertinent scriptures, the MANIFISTATION of the Spirit, which Spirit was within the baptized believers in biblical times per Acts 2:38, was the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands.
All of the following show the people were receiving the actual Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands:
Stephen was already a baptized believer, so according to Acts 2:38, he had already received the gift not gifts, which are the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit. It wasn't until they (the apostles) laid their hands on him, verse 6, that he was able to do the wonders as noted in verse 8
"5And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: 6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
8And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people."
Also to corroborate the fact that it was the laying on of the apostle's hands that enabled the gifts (manifestations of the Spirit, those listed in 1Cor 12:8-10), see below.
Acts 5:12
12And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
Acts 8:14-17
14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:18-19
18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:6
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
2 Tim 1:6-7
6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Pretty clear when you look at ALL the pertinent scriptures, the MANIFISTATION of the Spirit, which Spirit was within the baptized believers in biblical times per Acts 2:38, was the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands.
F
“For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.”
1 Corinthians 13:9-10
Completeness hasn’t come yet DLT_47
once what is complete has come then we no longer naturally need the gifts to help us show Gods love to the world. But for now we know only partially and only prophecy in part till one day our love(through Jesus Christ)is complete and we won’t need to see through the mirror.
“For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
1 Corinthians 13:12
1 Corinthians 13:9-10
Completeness hasn’t come yet DLT_47
once what is complete has come then we no longer naturally need the gifts to help us show Gods love to the world. But for now we know only partially and only prophecy in part till one day our love(through Jesus Christ)is complete and we won’t need to see through the mirror.
“For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
1 Corinthians 13:12
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If the claim is that there are miraculous gifts manifesting in tangible form then yes, I need tangible evidence; that doesn't seem unreasonable. But even more than that, people who make these claims should be able to demonstrate the things which they claim. Doesn't it seem strange they all make grand claims but not a single one of them can actually do what they claim?
F
Happens every day in hospitals. There are medically unexplainable recoveries that leave doctors baffled all the time. People who were in stage 4 cancer go back in and miraculously not a trace of cancer left in the human body.
Happens every day, you just refuse to see it as miraculous
Medical doctors even have crafted a label for such unexplained things and it gets put on one’s record as -miraculous healed-
Happens every day, you just refuse to see it as miraculous
Medical doctors even have crafted a label for such unexplained things and it gets put on one’s record as -miraculous healed-
F
Also that is a misconception of those with the healing gifts . They cannot turn it on or off as they wish. It all is reliance of what God wants to do “through them” in that particular instance or moment. A healer won’t be able to walk through a hospital and heal everyone because it may not be Gods will for those persons to be healed that day. Now God might lead someone there but if God isn’t leading the healer won’t be allowed the power to do so.
You are not understanding the text. I've posted this many times here and elsewhere but I'll repost it again for you.
REPOST
Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.
First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.
Also keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.
And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.
You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?
The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.
The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.
To piece it all together, you must look at the gifts and the logic in, and need for them at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify it, as well as to grow the church such as by use of tongues, being a sign to unbelievers.
I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 4. Look very closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get the true picture of their meaning as relates to the subject matter.
1 Corinthians 12:8-31
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
2 Corinthians 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Galatians 3:23-27
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ephesians 4:7-16
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
REPOST
Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.
First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.
Also keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.
And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.
You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?
The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.
The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.
To piece it all together, you must look at the gifts and the logic in, and need for them at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify it, as well as to grow the church such as by use of tongues, being a sign to unbelievers.
I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 4. Look very closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get the true picture of their meaning as relates to the subject matter.
1 Corinthians 12:8-31
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
2 Corinthians 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Galatians 3:23-27
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ephesians 4:7-16
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
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F
Ok so ask yourself this question. You have compiled all these scriptures to try to extract the justification for cessation of the miraculous gifts. To what point? Where is your heart in that? Does that line up with the heart of Jesus and the overarching theme of the miraculous working in all of scripture? Why would we think the miraculous was great for the Bible times but we all of a sudden don’t need it now? Why would we not need the miraculous today? The church is still being built. We still see great evil on the move in our world, wouldn’t God still want his church to have power against that evil? Didn’t that justification for cessation take a whole lot more work to do in your mind than simply believing God the Holy Spirit is who God said he is and that He still works today just as he did in the early church? To me basis of continuation doesn’t require me to compile a bunch of random teachings that were disconnected from each other and contrive them to mean something they were never intended to mean being stripped of the greater context of love.
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