Are pastors, elders, apostles, teachers appointed by God, or are they self-appointed?

[UnitedWithChrist]

All are commanded to preach the Gospel of Christ, and to teach people the truth of the word of God, and to be witnesses, and live Christlike as a witness to how being a Christian changes a person and to represent goodness regardless of the office they hold, which all the offices would do the same thing but some would reach out to more people, and to preach away from the homeland.

But the foundation and how they represent Christ and God is the same regardless if you are a preacher or a common pew sitter.

Which the Bible says that if any person asks for wisdom from God let them do it in faith, and God gives to all saints liberally nothing wavering, so a common pew sitter can know as much knowledge as the greatest preacher on earth for God does not give any person more knowledge than another if they seek it and want it for ask and you shall receive.

Since all people preach and teach the same regardless of office how does a person know if they are called of God for that office or not, because they believe God related it to them, or people confirmed it to them.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

The Bible says God gave the different offices to people for the perfecting of the saints and that they all believe the same things and not tossed to and fro with different doctrines, but we know there are different denominations that hold different beliefs.

So some must believe they are called of God but not, or are called by God but did not follow a Church that preaches the truth, or believed it was the people that determine whether they are to be a preacher coming from God like they cast lots to determine who would replace Judas but this was of God.

A lot of people are mistaken when they hold an office that God did not really call them which it would seem that way because of all the different denominations teaching different things.

I'm perfectly fine with only one body of believers, as long as they conform to my positions.

Of course, the vast majority won't submit to my understanding of Scripture, so that creates a problem.

For instance, some want to spend their worship time rolling on the ground, barking like dogs and flopping around like fish.

Some want to meet on Saturday rather than Sunday.

Some don't even believe in core Christian doctrine like the Trinity or the deity of Christ, thus they are not Christian.

It really becomes hard not to have distinctive beliefs, and teach anything of substance. I became more aware of this doing jail ministry, because some of the other guys were from different persuasions. Prisoners would hear one thing from me, and another thing from them, and it was mass confusion. You would have the same thing in churches today...and in fact, many "non-denominational churches" are really guys who have a doctrinal position themselves that doesn't align with any denomination, and they are trying to hide it or to sound trendy or whatever.

An example: Calvary Chapels claimed to be non-denominational but they most certainly had doctrinal positions, particularly believing in speaking in tongues, prophecying, etcetera, and teaching premillennial dispensationalism, even though they claimed they were not a denomination. And, Chuck Smith was most certainly the head of their denomination while he was alive.

Non-denominational groups are really just hypocrites in my opinion.

 

[p_rehbein]

If your issue is with vocabulary, then I would modify the word to "distributed" in the case of gifts.

The Holy Spirit distributes gifts as He wills, not according to what a man decides he should receive.

I'm not sure what the issue is, though, perhaps you'd like to clarify.

The issue is you seem to be saying that a person should not "recognize/acknowledge" the purpose God called that person to fulfill. I am not referring to the impostors that come into the Church, but to those men and women God has called and purposed that dedicate their lives to His service. That they recognize and acknowledge this "calling" is NOT a bad thing!

Saying that it is ONLY ok for a Congregation to recognize a persons calling is just silly. How can the Congregation recognize the calling IF the person does not put forth to the Congregation what their calling is?

“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose” (Philippians 2:12-13).

“And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28).

“He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace” (2 Timothy 1:9).

Every Christian is called by God for a purpose. Every Christian must seek to recognize AND acknowledge what that purpose is and seek to fulfill the purpose God called them to fulfill. They work to learn, they study, they practice, and they serve God. At first they are new to their calling, but as they grow in experience and knowledge, they become more proficient and a greater asset to God for the work of His Kingdom and to fulfill the purposed He called them to fulfill.

 

[p_rehbein]

I'm perfectly fine with only one body of believers, as long as they conform to my positions.

Of course, the vast majority won't submit to my understanding of Scripture, so that creates a problem.

For instance, some want to spend their worship time rolling on the ground, barking like dogs and flopping around like fish.

Some want to meet on Saturday rather than Sunday.

Some don't even believe in core Christian doctrine like the Trinity or the deity of Christ, thus they are not Christian.

It really becomes hard not to have distinctive beliefs, and teach anything of substance. I became more aware of this doing jail ministry, because some of the other guys were from different persuasions. Prisoners would hear one thing from me, and another thing from them, and it was mass confusion. You would have the same thing in churches today...and in fact, many "non-denominational churches" are really guys who have a doctrinal position themselves that doesn't align with any denomination, and they are trying to hide it or to sound trendy or whatever.

An example: Calvary Chapels claimed to be non-denominational but they most certainly had doctrinal positions, particularly believing in speaking in tongues, prophecying, etcetera, and teaching premillennial dispensationalism, even though they claimed they were not a denomination. And, Chuck Smith was most certainly the head of their denomination while he was alive.

Non-denominational groups are really just hypocrites in my opinion.

And, herein lies the problem. YOU ARE NOT THE FINAL AUTHORITY. Rather than think so much of yourself, concentrate on Jesus. Put God FIRST. It isn't your AUTHORITY that distinguishes what another person is or is not, it's Gods.

You surely appear to be practicing the very thing you preach against in the OP.

Unless I didn't get the Memo from God appointing you the Judge of mankind, you need to concentrate on your salvation, and leave judgment to the One appointed by God.

 

[garee]

Please note that I do not believe that there are any modern-day Apostles in the sense of the Twelve and Paul, so I do not think it is appropriate for any living human being to call himself an apostle. In fact, I think it is a sign of a very vain and prideful attitude to strut around, declaring one's self to be a holder of this office.

I already covered this in another thread.

But, my question relates to pastors, elders, apostles, and teachers. Some have asserted that you can appoint yourself to one of these offices.

This is the topic of discussion: what does Scripture say in this regard?

I do not think you can divide apostle from apostle. It simply means "sent one". It has another purpose other than eulogizing the flesh as it would seem some say. . Abel the first recorded apostle and first martyr to represent the work of faith as God's labor of love that did work in Abel, Cain killing the messenger thinking he killed the message. .

If a person has been given a desire God can teach them how to plant the seed and water it with the doctrines of God, (the water of the living, abiding word).

False apostles are those who go above all things written in the law and prophets. the two witnesses of God.(sola scriptura) and add to it with the oral traditions of men it can take away from the authors intent. We are in that way commanded not to change the meaning of a word, singular, like apostle or like sabbath another common word that if mistranslated can create its own doctrine. And not one established as law by as it is written .

The Holy Spirit warned the believer before hand it would be impossible to deceive them They understand God would no longer adding to his written law. it was the last days the time of reformation had come. A time of great confusion and joy like never before or ever again We have the perfect or complete. It is sealed with seven seals .It keeps the integrity of the one author. Our valuable tool for trying the spirits to see if they are of Him not seen or men seen .If any man says I audibly heard a voice of the Lord, I had a vision, or out of the body experience we are to believe not the lie or expect a strong delusion to keep on trusting the father of lies.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.21-26

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

And, herein lies the problem. YOU ARE NOT THE FINAL AUTHORITY. Rather than think so much of yourself, concentrate on Jesus. Put God FIRST. It isn't your AUTHORITY that distinguishes what another person is or is not, it's Gods.

You surely appear to be practicing the very thing you preach against in the OP.

Unless I didn't get the Memo from God appointing you the Judge of mankind, you need to concentrate on your salvation, and leave judgment to the One appointed by God.

As I said, you miss my point...individuals want their own preferences, and will not compromise in material ways...therefore by necessity there must be more than one group within Christianity.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The issue is you seem to be saying that a person should not "recognize/acknowledge" the purpose God called that person to fulfill. I am not referring to the impostors that come into the Church, but to those men and women God has called and purposed that dedicate their lives to His service. That they recognize and acknowledge this "calling" is NOT a bad thing!

Saying that it is ONLY ok for a Congregation to recognize a persons calling is just silly. How can the Congregation recognize the calling IF the person does not put forth to the Congregation what their calling is?

“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose” (Philippians 2:12-13).

“And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28).

“He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace” (2 Timothy 1:9).

Every Christian is called by God for a purpose. Every Christian must seek to recognize AND acknowledge what that purpose is and seek to fulfill the purpose God called them to fulfill. They work to learn, they study, they practice, and they serve God. At first they are new to their calling, but as they grow in experience and knowledge, they become more proficient and a greater asset to God for the work of His Kingdom and to fulfill the purposed He called them to fulfill.

My point is that individuals do not appoint themselves apostles, prophets, elders, deacons..the congregation and the elders appoint them as such. It is presumptuous to claim such an office outside of the context of the church's appointment. And, if the church appoints, certainly it is the one who recognizes the giftedness. Yes, I would say the person can recognize the possible gifts that he might possess, but in the case of certain offices, they must be appointed, and this requires church recognition.

As well, there are many men who are full of vanity and assume they have a gift or office that they don't have.

 

[oldethennew]

"Let there be no division among you" -
EPH. 4:13.
Till we all come in the UNITY of the Faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
PHI. 2:2.
Fulfil you my joy, that you be likeminded, having the same LOVE, being of one Accord, of one Mind.
MARK 12:29.
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the Commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is One Lord:
1COR. 1:13.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul?..........................???????????????