The natural man, the non-elect, (1 Cor 2:14) cannot discern the things of the Spirit for they are foolishness unto him. I believe in a spiritual God and discern all of the scriptures telling me what he has done for his sheep. I also can discern John 6:38 telling me that Jesus died to pay for all of the sins of those that God gave him. I would not have been able to discern these things unless God had first regenerated me with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the new birth. Do you need more?
Are Those Who Have Fallen Away in Hebrews 6:4-8 Born-Again?
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Remember brother, you are speaking to one who self identified as primitive Baptist, which is a Denomination that ascribes to TULIP.
Nothing that you and I know of Salvation scriptures as intended to be understood harmonizes with the TULIP formula that Primitive Baptists ascribe to. PB church link
Koine Greek Lexicon=Salvation
Nothing that you and I know of Salvation scriptures as intended to be understood harmonizes with the TULIP formula that Primitive Baptists ascribe to. PB church link
Koine Greek Lexicon=Salvation
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Yes, of course, you differentiated between one who confesses Christ, and one who clearly, and overtly doesn't. That was way too easy. I confess Christ as Lord & Saviour, and I agree with all the scriptures that you quoted that they are necessary to believe in order to attain to salvation. But, I personally, do not have assurance. For example, if I was to die today, I'd say yes, i'm saved, but tomorrow, I'm not convinced. Plus, I sin daily, too many times to count (mostly thoughts). I ask you, am I saved i.e. part of the elect? If not, what differentiates between you and me?
It is foreseen in scripture that there would be false teachings that would deceive even the elect of God. Such is that which insists we will lose fellowship with God if we sin.
Those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning.
The Book of 1st Corinthians 1 and verses 4 thru 10
I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge— 6 even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you— 7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
Notice verse 8 doesn't put a caveat upon the fellowship by saying, unless we sin. (you were called into the fellowship of his son Jesus Christ our Lord, unless you sin....)
The Book of 1st John chapter 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
That passage doesn't speak of those who are in Christ, as one's who walk in darkness, but rather those who are not in faith.
The tragedy of the TULIP formula in any Denominational teaching is that its constant is to lead its faithful to be insecure in their place in Christ. You're sanctified, but not yet. You're saved, but not yet.
Tragic.
Those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning.
The Book of 1st Corinthians 1 and verses 4 thru 10
I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge— 6 even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you— 7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
Notice verse 8 doesn't put a caveat upon the fellowship by saying, unless we sin. (you were called into the fellowship of his son Jesus Christ our Lord, unless you sin....)
The Book of 1st John chapter 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
That passage doesn't speak of those who are in Christ, as one's who walk in darkness, but rather those who are not in faith.
The tragedy of the TULIP formula in any Denominational teaching is that its constant is to lead its faithful to be insecure in their place in Christ. You're sanctified, but not yet. You're saved, but not yet.
Tragic.
Hey Whispered? does this fit into your theology? can you please explain these verses to us, if not your view is most likely wrong then.
One from the OT, one from the NT.
Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people[b] should be kept alive, as they are today.
Acts 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Im wondering does Arminian theology even have an explanation for this? (i honestly don't know).
BTW these verses are the words of Jesus Christ your Savior, the breathed out words of God, as IF hes standing right next to you and telling you it. What are you going to say back to King Jesus? what do you think of His verses that are absolute truth? whats your theology?
One from the OT, one from the NT.
Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people[b] should be kept alive, as they are today.
Acts 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Im wondering does Arminian theology even have an explanation for this? (i honestly don't know).
BTW these verses are the words of Jesus Christ your Savior, the breathed out words of God, as IF hes standing right next to you and telling you it. What are you going to say back to King Jesus? what do you think of His verses that are absolute truth? whats your theology?
I've commonly heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person truly "lost their salvation." NOWHERE does the Bible use the words "lose or lost salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). According to this view, the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement, "IF a Christian were to fall away." The point being made is that it would be impossible if a Christian fell away to renew them again. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage then presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can permanently fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion that they would crucify again for themselves the Son of God.
In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.
In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. It speaks of those sharing in, partaking, a partner (in work, office, dignity). - https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/metochos.html
Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews 3:14 in the context of believers, "For we have become partakers of Christ," so at first glance, partakers of the Holy Spirit "on the surface" would seem to support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. Such individuals may have become a sharer in or partaker of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not state that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)
In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of the quality and character of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).
In regards to fall away, in Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Those who permanently fall away demonstrate they were not truly born again. (1 John 2:19) In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether it was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith.
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see other metaphors in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.
*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation.
It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. *Now why is it that we never find the words "lose or lost your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue for me. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.
In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.
In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. It speaks of those sharing in, partaking, a partner (in work, office, dignity). - https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/metochos.html
Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews 3:14 in the context of believers, "For we have become partakers of Christ," so at first glance, partakers of the Holy Spirit "on the surface" would seem to support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. Such individuals may have become a sharer in or partaker of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not state that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)
In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of the quality and character of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).
In regards to fall away, in Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Those who permanently fall away demonstrate they were not truly born again. (1 John 2:19) In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether it was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith.
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see other metaphors in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.
*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation.
It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. *Now why is it that we never find the words "lose or lost your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue for me. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.
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Amen! In Matthew 24:24, Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - These charlatans will be so skillful that they will, if possible (ei dunaton), lead astray the very elect. The implication is that it is not possible. - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/matthew/matthew-24-24.html
We are warned by God not to try and determine who the elect are. When David was king of Israel he got into serious trouble with God for trying to number Israel and as his punishment caused thousands of the people to die. We do have scripture telling us that we shall know them by their fruit and by your admitting your sins is a good sign (fruit) that you are one of the elect. Because you are one of the elect you do not have to worry about the sins you commit keeping you out of heaven because Christ paid for every sin that you will ever commit. We are instructed to repent when we sin but it is not to save us eternally (Christ has already secured that for you). It is to regain our fellowship back with God because God will not fellowship sin. The salvation scriptures will seem to contradict each other if you do not properly divide them. Salvation in Greek means "a deliverance". We are eternally delivered and we are delivered here in time every time we repent and God delivers (saves) us from his non-fellowship.
