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GOD Is a Spirit and must be worshiped In spirit and In TRUTH
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Paul was talking about how GOD sees us so and GOD would not have to see physical works because he knows our thoughts and intents.
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Romans 4:1-2
king James version(KJV)
1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2.)For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
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James was talking about how men look at the outward appearances hence show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.
We as human beings with a body look at the outward appearances and that Is what the other person will see
when a person shows their faith.
So then you can't show your faith without expressing It with your body because we would not be able to see your faith any other way as men.
Only GOD can see your heart.
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Paul was talking about how GOD sees us so and GOD would not have to see physical works because he knows our thoughts and intents.
+++
Romans 4:1-2
king James version(KJV)
1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2.)For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
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James was talking about how men look at the outward appearances hence show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.
We as human beings with a body look at the outward appearances and that Is what the other person will see
when a person shows their faith.
So then you can't show your faith without expressing It with your body because we would not be able to see your faith any other way as men.
Only GOD can see your heart.
Paul was not talking about works of faith but works of the law.
James was talking about works of faith.
They are two distinctly different things.
But because you don't walk in the supernatural, you cannot understand this.
The works you are talking about have to do with walking in love because the love of Christ is in you, and doing good because Christ is in you.
But James goes beyond the simple things of giving and doing good things for others.
By faith Joshua stopped the earth and moon from rotating so they could slaughter their enemy.
By faith David killed the giant.
James is not only talking about us having the same spirit of faith as them, but doing the same great works of faith.
James was talking about works of faith.
They are two distinctly different things.
But because you don't walk in the supernatural, you cannot understand this.
The works you are talking about have to do with walking in love because the love of Christ is in you, and doing good because Christ is in you.
But James goes beyond the simple things of giving and doing good things for others.
By faith Joshua stopped the earth and moon from rotating so they could slaughter their enemy.
By faith David killed the giant.
James is not only talking about us having the same spirit of faith as them, but doing the same great works of faith.
E
That's not true, That's a false belief imposed on paul by churches who wish to insert works to save themselves.
In eph 2. Paul speaks of any work, which could cause a man to boast. In titus, Paul uses an work of righteousness (good deed0 of any kind.
if you think works are required to get one saved, Your the one who is in trouble my friend, But since you can not fathom that a work is a work is a work. You can not understand this.
James is talking about people who CLAIM to have faith that saved, but does not have any work to prove they are saved, They are hearers of the word, not doers. He asks the question. Can that particular faith save them. no.. why? It is dead. It is lifeless.
Paul spoke of a living faith which works (eph 2: 10)
James is fighting a false belief of a dead faith which is lifeless.
Joshua had a real faith proven by his work
Abraham had a real faith. proven by his works.
Read Hebrews 11 to see the example of people who trusted God and because of their faith they were saved.
Read Romans 4 to see paul was not talking about works of the law. Because he said clearly. not one work Abraham did caused his salvation. He and james both Quote moses, by saying Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him for righteousness.
The difference between saving faith, which Abraham had, and a dead faith, (mere belief) that many people have. Is that Abraham faith had life, thus he worked. Other peoples faith has no life. so they continue to act like sinner and the world..
In eph 2. Paul speaks of any work, which could cause a man to boast. In titus, Paul uses an work of righteousness (good deed0 of any kind.
if you think works are required to get one saved, Your the one who is in trouble my friend, But since you can not fathom that a work is a work is a work. You can not understand this.
James is talking about people who CLAIM to have faith that saved, but does not have any work to prove they are saved, They are hearers of the word, not doers. He asks the question. Can that particular faith save them. no.. why? It is dead. It is lifeless.
Paul spoke of a living faith which works (eph 2: 10)
James is fighting a false belief of a dead faith which is lifeless.
Joshua had a real faith proven by his work
Abraham had a real faith. proven by his works.
Read Hebrews 11 to see the example of people who trusted God and because of their faith they were saved.
Read Romans 4 to see paul was not talking about works of the law. Because he said clearly. not one work Abraham did caused his salvation. He and james both Quote moses, by saying Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him for righteousness.
The difference between saving faith, which Abraham had, and a dead faith, (mere belief) that many people have. Is that Abraham faith had life, thus he worked. Other peoples faith has no life. so they continue to act like sinner and the world..
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can [his] faith save him?
The Greek word for saved is, sozo, which means not only to save in the biblical sense, but to preserve, protect, deliver, heal, and to be or to make whole.
These are the things only God can do through works of faith.
The subject is about "a man", not the brethren.
The faith that James is referring to in this verse is the same kind most so called Christians have. That is the dead kind.
Faith without any kind of corresponding work that defies the natural circumstance they are currently going through, is in fact dead faith, according to James.
To speak and act on what a situation dictates, is to have dead faith. To speak and act on the natural, is to put you faith in the natural. Everyone's works correspond to what their faith is in.
If their faith were in God and His word, they would no doubt speak and act on that.
But Jesus said, "this people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Most here love God, but they have no clue what faith is or how it works, nor are they able to see it.
You can talk about works all you want, but they will not understand what you are talking about, and they will only tell you that you have it backward. That you are putting the cart before the horse, when it is they who are doing that.
I have already written about this subject a number of times, and the thick wall you are trying to get through, just seems to get thicker the more you talk about it.
The Greek word for saved is, sozo, which means not only to save in the biblical sense, but to preserve, protect, deliver, heal, and to be or to make whole.
These are the things only God can do through works of faith.
The subject is about "a man", not the brethren.
The faith that James is referring to in this verse is the same kind most so called Christians have. That is the dead kind.
Faith without any kind of corresponding work that defies the natural circumstance they are currently going through, is in fact dead faith, according to James.
To speak and act on what a situation dictates, is to have dead faith. To speak and act on the natural, is to put you faith in the natural. Everyone's works correspond to what their faith is in.
If their faith were in God and His word, they would no doubt speak and act on that.
But Jesus said, "this people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Most here love God, but they have no clue what faith is or how it works, nor are they able to see it.
You can talk about works all you want, but they will not understand what you are talking about, and they will only tell you that you have it backward. That you are putting the cart before the horse, when it is they who are doing that.
I have already written about this subject a number of times, and the thick wall you are trying to get through, just seems to get thicker the more you talk about it.
I'm almost sure that you are arguing semantics. To me and, I believe, most others is that the phrase "dead faith" and "no faith" are completely interchangeable.
For those of you debating the Law that God has placed in our hearts, I say take a break and study the usage of the word "love" in the New Testament. You will find that there is a lot more to it than obeying commandments.
For those of you debating the Law that God has placed in our hearts, I say take a break and study the usage of the word "love" in the New Testament. You will find that there is a lot more to it than obeying commandments.
Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull
Think about what you just said. Is there such thing as a "dead" faith??
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
According to James, this is such a thing as dead faith.
It is like a body without the life giving spirit in it.
If there were no faith, then how could you say that it is dead?
If I never existed, then how could you even call me by my name, much less, say that I was dead?
Think about what you just said. Is there such thing as a "dead" faith??
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
According to James, this is such a thing as dead faith.
It is like a body without the life giving spirit in it.
If there were no faith, then how could you say that it is dead?
If I never existed, then how could you even call me by my name, much less, say that I was dead?
B
Actually I used the word "dead" which is totally Biblical and the argument was started with me at the beginning of this thread. The point was the arguer was trying to make was that there is no such thing as a dead faith, despite the fact that it's Biblical.
If the words aren't interchangeable there so close that it becomes a matter of splitting hairs. But that only begs the question, why such a fit (not necessarily from you) about changing the word from dead in the first place?
At any rate, the argument seems over for now. Haven't gotten any grief in a while now about using the Biblical term.
If the words aren't interchangeable there so close that it becomes a matter of splitting hairs. But that only begs the question, why such a fit (not necessarily from you) about changing the word from dead in the first place?
At any rate, the argument seems over for now. Haven't gotten any grief in a while now about using the Biblical term.
E
~[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
You will have to forgive me, It seems people have a reading issue. Because they are blinded by some unreasonable desire to add works to the gospel of Christ.
James never said the person had faith.
His context. is a person CLAIMS TO HAVE FAITH.
James answer. that persons CLAIMED FAITH IS DEAD
why do people want to make james contradict paul? Why do people want o to add works to grace? Why do people want to try to save themselves. and stop allowing god to save them??
The amazing thing here is that James called these people liars for claiming to have faith, and people want to take this to mean James is saying we are saved by faith plus works..
You will have to forgive me, It seems people have a reading issue. Because they are blinded by some unreasonable desire to add works to the gospel of Christ.
James never said the person had faith.
His context. is a person CLAIMS TO HAVE FAITH.
James answer. that persons CLAIMED FAITH IS DEAD
why do people want to make james contradict paul? Why do people want o to add works to grace? Why do people want to try to save themselves. and stop allowing god to save them??
The amazing thing here is that James called these people liars for claiming to have faith, and people want to take this to mean James is saying we are saved by faith plus works..
Please give me an example of your works of faith that says you are saved and someone who says they have faith, or say they are a born again child of God, but are not saved.
What kind of works follow your saving faith?
Give me a real personal example, if you would?
What works demonstrate your faith above, let's say, a nice person, or a JW or Mormon?
What kind of works follow your saving faith?
Give me a real personal example, if you would?
What works demonstrate your faith above, let's say, a nice person, or a JW or Mormon?
E
Really?!
James answered CLAIMED faith?!
C'mon now.
James answered CLAIMED faith?!
C'mon now.
C'mon now. why do you want to distort a guys words to make your own belief come true?
The "faith" James spoke of was a claimed faith. (what does it prophet if a man claims to have faith, but has no work)
He never said they had faith.
E
Read Hebrews 11. God gave us many examples. Read the book of genesis.. Read about David, a man who was said to be after Gods own heart before he even did one thing..
Abraham was said to have faith before he did one work. How do we know Abraham had true faith? Look at all the work (of faith) Abraham did after he trusted God and was saved?
Look at all the works the Pharisee did. Al the obedience to Gods commands (yes they sinned, but so did David and Abraham) Did those works come from faith in God?
I would give you examples of my life, but that would not prove anything, I will stick to the bible
oh and by the way. What work did james say these people had? How many works did they do? Why did James say they had no work at all.. did James miss something?
I would put most of the church in the "claimed to have faith" status, but having none outside salvaton, including yourself.
Okay, let's take the works of faith subject away from salvation, and move it to the sickness and disease arena.
Let's say a real, already born again child of God has a terminal sickness that doctors and medication can't help, but this born again child of God wants to live.
Now this person can't do anything to earn his salvation, because he's already born again, and we know that.
So now the issue of works of faith have absolutely nothing to do with salvation, which eliminates what Paul was talking about. Right?
This is about getting God to heal the born again child of God.
Now talk to me about this person's works of faith.
Does your idea of works even apply to a person with this scenario?
What do you tell someone, when they are dying?
Okay, let's take the works of faith subject away from salvation, and move it to the sickness and disease arena.
Let's say a real, already born again child of God has a terminal sickness that doctors and medication can't help, but this born again child of God wants to live.
Now this person can't do anything to earn his salvation, because he's already born again, and we know that.
So now the issue of works of faith have absolutely nothing to do with salvation, which eliminates what Paul was talking about. Right?
This is about getting God to heal the born again child of God.
Now talk to me about this person's works of faith.
Does your idea of works even apply to a person with this scenario?
What do you tell someone, when they are dying?
B
No and he never said they didn't have faith either. What he DID do was talk specifically about that type of faith as an existent thing which means it exists. He said their faith is dead, which means it's exists as a dead thing. He poses a the same question I did about that type of faith which means it something something to be questioned and discussed. It's existent in any context...obviously.
Since starting this argument you've gone on to talk about dead faith yourself a few times so you obviously know it's existent yourself.
This isn't about correcting the Bible to agree with your "context".
Since starting this argument you've gone on to talk about dead faith yourself a few times so you obviously know it's existent yourself.
This isn't about correcting the Bible to agree with your "context".