Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?

[Noose]

I affirm that.

You don't seem to understand that "of one essence" means there is only one God.

The word "essence" is the same thing as "being". The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share the same essence, yet are distinct Persons.

The oneness of God's essence, and the oneness of His Being is built into the creed.



And, the Creed basically restates 1 Corinthians in terms of one God and one Lord...however this statement doesn't imply that Jesus is not God, and that the Father is not Lord...it is true that both the Father and Jesus are both Lord and God.

You can not have three distinct yet one, it is either three distinct or just one.

 

[Absolutely]

OK..

So you deny monotheism and the Trinity.

Be forewarned, folks.

Scripture clearly teaches that there is only one God. And he uses personal pronouns like "I" to speak of himself.

Therefore, there can only be one God in this sense.

Start with Genesis 1:26-27 and work from there.

Notice that God created man, and the pronoun "us" was used in regards to the proposal, then the pronoun "he" is used to describe himself in the creation.

So, there is a simplicity of God, and there is also a complexity of God.

This isn't an isolated incident, either. I would suggest reading Isaiah 40-55 for several passages where God says he is the only one like himself.

Isaiah 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Notice that YHVH says he is the only God, there is none like him.

The plot thickens in Isaiah 53 as the Father is clearly YHVH there, and it thickens even further when Jesus identifies himself as YHVH.

I used to be a polytheist like you, though..and I pretty much thought the same things.

I am wondering, do you deny the Personhood of the Holy Spirit, too? Or do you believe he is a separate god?

I SHOWED you clearly where they are separate beings

CLEARLY

so "one God" ..."three beings is in the word.
Clearly in the word.

It is mans mental inability to agree with the bible.

You basically NEED them to NOT be 3 separate beings.

I do not understand it. We never will.

But to say that FACT automatically constitutes heresy and polytheism is to join in the exact same formula upc uses for Jesus being ,in their minds,the Father.

Three beings but one God is bible. Easily seen several places and even bolstered by Jesus referring to him and the Father as one.

But wait ..."make them one as we are one" destroys any hope for "us" the church as being "one being"...as you would end up with.

Look,you are trying to understand the trinity.

It can not be understood...not ever.

We only KNOW what can and can not be said.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I SHOWED you clearly where they are separate beings

CLEARLY

so "one God" ..."three beings is in the word.
Clearly in the word.

It is mans mental inability to agree with the bible.

You basically NEED them to NOT be 3 separate beings.

I do not understand it. We never will.

But to say that FACT automatically constitutes heresy and polytheism is to join in the exact same formula upc uses for Jesus being ,in their minds,the Father.

Three beings but one God is bible. Easily seen several places and even bolstered by Jesus referring to him and the Father as one.

But wait ..."make them one as we are one" destroys any hope for "us" the church as being "one being"...as you would end up with.

Look,you are trying to understand the trinity.

It can not be understood...not ever.

We only KNOW what can and can not be said.

NO, you are the one who is wrong.

Three separate beings is tritheism, and no Christian apologist would defend tritheism because they know it means polytheism, and Christianity is a monotheistic faith.

There is only one God yet three Persons.

Anyone who claims otherwise is simply a heretic.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You can not have three distinct yet one, it is either three distinct or just one.

No, the word "distinct" is a non-spatial term to describe the distinct Personhood.

"Separate" is a spatial term and shouldn't be used with regards to God, because he is a non-spatial being.

That is why "distinct" is used.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same substance.

The Church has always taught this..that is why the Greek words "homoouisious" and "homoiousious" were added to theological vocabulary...

Homoousious means "same substance" and homoiousious means "similar substance".

The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are the "same substance" or "same essence". They are not similar essence; that would mean tri-theism or polytheism.

By the way, no sound Christian academic would find anything I've said to be objectionable.

Only cultists or heretics or ignorant Christians would claim that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate beings.

 

[Noose]

No, the word "distinct" is a non-spatial term to describe the distinct Personhood.

"Separate" is a spatial term and shouldn't be used with regards to God, because he is a non-spatial being.

That is why "distinct" is used.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same substance.

The Church has always taught this..that is why the Greek words "homoouisious" and "homoiousious" were added to theological vocabulary...

Homoousious means "same substance" and homoiousious means "similar substance".

The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are the "same substance" or "same essence". They are not similar essence; that would mean tri-theism or polytheism.

By the way, no sound Christian academic would find anything I've said to be objectionable.

Only cultists or heretics or ignorant Christians would claim that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate beings.

Only one way to find out.

Q. Is Jesus God by Himself or is He God, only with the Father and the Holy spirit?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

But where does the scripture say these are three persons in one God?

It is inconceivable what you are proposing, we know that Jesus is one person and one being by Himself, yet the Father and the Holy spirit are in Him (Jesus).

The entire position is assumed in Scripture, however, you might start with Matthew 28:18-20.

By the way, if I remember correctly, aren't you a Oneness guy? You believe in sock puppet theology right?

In other words, you believe that the three Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are like sock puppets that God wears, and they have no distinct Personhood?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

My response to this theology would be that it is absurd, because the Father and Son have personal relationships. The Son intercedes for believers with the Father at the throne of God. These are personal relationships. This is impossible in a Oneness belief system.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Only one way to find out.

Q. Is Jesus God by Himself or is He God, only with the Father and the Holy spirit?

This is incoherent. Jesus is God, and shares the same essence or substance or being with the Father and the Holy Spirit, each of whom are God.

Jesus has a dual nature. He is both God and man.

I am not sure what you are asking as it is incoherent.

 

[Absolutely]

OK..

So you deny monotheism and the Trinity.

Be forewarned, folks.

Scripture clearly teaches that there is only one God. And he uses personal pronouns like "I" to speak of himself.

Therefore, there can only be one God in this sense.

Start with Genesis 1:26-27 and work from there.

Notice that God created man, and the pronoun "us" was used in regards to the proposal, then the pronoun "he" is used to describe himself in the creation.

So, there is a simplicity of God, and there is also a complexity of God.

This isn't an isolated incident, either. I would suggest reading Isaiah 40-55 for several passages where God says he is the only one like himself.

Isaiah 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Notice that YHVH says he is the only God, there is none like him.

The plot thickens in Isaiah 53 as the Father is clearly YHVH there, and it thickens even further when Jesus identifies himself as YHVH.

I used to be a polytheist like you, though..and I pretty much thought the same things.

I am wondering, do you deny the Personhood of the Holy Spirit, too? Or do you believe he is a separate god?

I know what can and cant be said.

That is what i am saying.

I believe every word concerning the trinity of the bible.

I am willing to go there.

You are needing extra spin with "essence" and "polytheism"

Your defining and "understanding" is what is in the way.

I know for a fact as the word declares that they are separate beings/persons/entities.

That is just bible and i belive it.
I dont need to understand HOW they are one.
I know for a fact they are one.

One God is NOT polytheism.

So calling my beliefs that is simply false.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Listen...

Oneness people must answer the question of relationship. The Bible, throughout, teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have personal relationships. Oneness theology cannot resolve the relational aspect of Scripture between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Polytheists (those claiming more than one God) cannot address the Scriptures which are used in the OT in relation to Yahweh being the one and only God, and the singular pronouns he uses to describe himself.

Arians cannot address the Scriptures which indicate Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is a Person. Additionally, many of them claim that Jesus d

Christianity, through the Trinity, can deal with all of those issues. That is why it is the only possible solution.

I know what can and cant be said.

That is what i am saying.

I believe every word concerning the trinity of the bible.

I am willing to go there.

You are needing extra spin with "essence" and "polytheism"

Your defining and "understanding" is what is in the way.

I know for a fact as the word declares that they are separate beings/persons/entities.

That is just bible and i belive it.
I dont need to understand HOW they are one.
I know for a fact they are one.

One God is NOT polytheism.

So calling my beliefs that is simply false.

Claiming there are separate god beings is polytheism.

Whether you accept it or not.

Find a good, solid Christian theologian and ask him if it is acceptable to believe in separate god beings. He will tell you no.

Christianity is monotheistic, and oneness of purpose alone is not monotheism. Monotheism is oneness of Being or substance or essence.

Any educated Trinitarian Christian would tell you that your view of two or three separate god beings is polytheism.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Question: "How is the doctrine of the Trinity not tritheism?"

Answer: The doctrine of the Trinity is at the very center of the Christian faith. That God is triune in nature is affirmed not only in Scripture but also in the early ecumenical creeds of the church—specifically, Nicaea (A.D. 325) and Constantinople (A.D. 381). The doctrine is essentially that God is one in being while existing as three co-equal, co-eternal Persons, namely, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

One often-heard objection to the Trinity is that the doctrine logically entails tritheism (a belief in three gods). But is this criticism valid? Is Trinitarian theology at odds with the clearly taught monotheism of the Hebrew Scriptures? Or did the early Christians get it right when they upheld the monotheism of the Old Testament while at the same time affirming the full deity of three distinct Persons? To answer this question, we need to look over the biblical data. The Bible clearly affirms that there is but one God (Isaiah 43:10; 1 Corinthians 8:4). In addition, the Bible teaches the deity of the Father (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2), the Son (John 1:1-3; Hebrews 1:2; Titus 2:13; Colossians 1:16-17), and the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16). Moreover, the biblical writers go out of their way to affirm that all three Persons are distinct from each other (Matthew 28:19; Romans 15:30; 2 Corinthians 13:14). So, while it is true that the word trinity is not found in the Bible, the concept most certainly is.

Does the fact that there exist three divine Persons entail that there exist three separate gods? The answer is no. The same Scriptures that affirm that all three Persons of the Trinity are divine also unequivocally affirm monotheism (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Timothy 2:5). So, what are we to do with this tension between the idea of three divine Persons and monotheism? A helpful clarification involves what we mean by the word person.

Person can be defined as “a center of self-consciousness.” A person has a mind, emotions, and a will, can communicate with others, and is capable of performing actions. When we speak of the concept of personhood as it relates to the Trinity, we are describing self-distinctions in God. All three Persons of the one triune God possess the complete attributes of deity. All three Persons are truly divine, yet eternally distinct from one another. The divine Persons can and do communicate with each other (John 17:1-26; Hebrews 1:8-9). Essentially, God has three centers of self-consciousness. Yet this one Being (the triune God of Scripture) possesses one indivisible essence. There is only one Being that is God, and this one Being is tri-personal, with each of the three Persons having full possession of the divine nature.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Tritheism-Trinity.html

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I suggest that anyone who is confused on this issue should look up "tritheism" or "bitheism" or "ditheism".

These are all non-Trinitarian belief systems.

I would have been a bi-theist, as a member of the cult, because I believed that the Father and the Son were two separate Gods, and the Holy Spirit was a force, and not a person.

This is the teaching of some cultic groups.

It is NOT Trinitarianism.

The biblical teaching is that there is one God, in terms of being/essence/substance, yet three Persons, in terms of Personhood.

The word "substance" in this case is a little loose, as it is describing things in the material realm. It is assumed amongst theologians that this isn't talking about material, though, because God isn't made of anything. He is spirit, and the best way to describe this is a disembodied mind.

Jesus, on the other hand, possesses a dual nature, being both glorified man and God.

By the way, this issue comes up over and over and over and over again throughout church history, with various groups trying to deny the Trinity, or redefine it according to their understanding.

That is why it is useful to read church history. I recommend the series 2000 Years of Christ's Power by Nick Needham or Know the Heretics by Justin Holcomb.

 

[Noose]

The entire position is assumed in Scripture, however, you might start with Matthew 28:18-20.

By the way, if I remember correctly, aren't you a Oneness guy? You believe in sock puppet theology right?

In other words, you believe that the three Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are like sock puppets that God wears, and they have no distinct Personhood?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

My response to this theology would be that it is absurd, because the Father and Son have personal relationships. The Son intercedes for believers with the Father at the throne of God. These are personal relationships. This is impossible in a Oneness belief system.

I'm not oneness guy and i don't know or believe in this so called sock puppet theology.

My belief is simple; The Father/son/Holy spirit are authorities of God who came in the person of Jesus which means that God came to demonstrate sonship to us. While demonstrating sonship, He submitted to the authority of the Father and overcame sin. After overcoming sin, He assumes the authority of the Father while we assume the authority of the son and what makes this possible is that tha Father indwells the son in the form of the Holy spirit (understanding).

This is shown in John 14/15/16. For example:

John 14:12Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you ask Med anything in My name, I will do it.

John 16:23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.


Not that the disciples had not asked Jesus anything, what this means is that Jesus had not attained the authority of the Father and come into them as the Holy spirit to make them attain the authority of the son. This is why Jesus is saying He has not gone to the Father. Now when Jesus attains that authority, this is what He does:

John 16:12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.

And the place that He almost got direct:

John 16:25I have spoken these things to you in figures of speech. A time is coming when I will no longer speak to you this way, but will tell you plainly about the Father. 26In that day you will ask in My name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God.c 28I came from the Father and entered the world. In turn, I will leave the world and go to the Father.”

Very simple. Jesus is the Father.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I'm not oneness guy and i don't know or believe in this so called sock puppet theology.

My belief is simple; The Father/son/Holy spirit are authorities of God who came in the person of Jesus which means that God came to demonstrate sonship to us. While demonstrating sonship, He submitted to the authority of the Father and overcame sin. After overcoming sin, He assumes the authority of the Father while we assume the authority of the son and what makes this possible is that tha Father indwells the son in the form of the Holy spirit (understanding).

This is shown in John 14/15/16. For example:

John 14:12Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you ask Med anything in My name, I will do it.

John 16:23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.


Not that the disciples had not asked Jesus anything, what this means is that Jesus had not attained the authority of the Father and come into them as the Holy spirit to make them attain the authority of the son. This is why Jesus is saying He has not gone to the Father. Now when Jesus attains that authority, this is what He does:

John 16:12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.

And the place that He almost got direct:

John 16:25I have spoken these things to you in figures of speech. A time is coming when I will no longer speak to you this way, but will tell you plainly about the Father. 26In that day you will ask in My name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God.c 28I came from the Father and entered the world. In turn, I will leave the world and go to the Father.”

Very simple. Jesus is the Father.

Ah ok..you hold some type of weird theology that resembles Oneness theology.



I don't want to invest the time to respond, as I have a headache today.

 

[Noose]

This is incoherent. Jesus is God, and shares the same essence or substance or being with the Father and the Holy Spirit, each of whom are God.

Jesus has a dual nature. He is both God and man.

I am not sure what you are asking as it is incoherent.

Now this is incoherent.

If Jesus being one person and one being by Himself is God then God is just one person and one being. If we are going to have another person and another being who is also God, then we have two Gods.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Now this is incoherent.

If Jesus being one person and one being by Himself is God then God is just one person and one being. If we are going to have another person and another being who is also God, then we have two Gods.

I think your issue is that you don't understand Jesus has a dual nature. He is both glorified man and God.

There is only one God in terms of being or essence, yet three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus, one of the three Persons, has a dual nature, being both glorified man and God.

There is only one person, Jesus, yet two natures.

By the way, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit mutually indwell each other. That is what it means to be one God. They are co-essential.

 

[Noose]

I think your issue is that you don't understand Jesus has a dual nature. He is both glorified man and God.

There is only one God in terms of being or essence, yet three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus, one of the three Persons, has a dual nature, being both glorified man and God.

There is only one person, Jesus, yet two natures.

By the way, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit mutually indwell each other. That is what it means to be one God. They are co-essential.

No such thing.

2 Pet 1:4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.


Does this mean that believers also have dual nature?

Heb 2:17For this reason He had to be made like His brothers in every way, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.

Every way here mean every way and when we are victorious, we shall also be made to be like Him in every way.
Think about it.

 

[Alertandawake]

Ok number 2 is where you stumble.
"Reveals himself"

Jesus is not a manifestation or revelation of the Father.

Infact,in hebrews it states that the Son is exalted above the Father.

To that end the Father states of the son "thy throne o God is forrver and ever"

Are you quoting Hebrews 1:8?, this really needs to be researched because if you read in context of both Hebrews 1:8-9, especially in Hebrews 1:9 you see this part "therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee" notice that a being is being anointed.

Looking at the greek word for God, (G2316 theos) when you do your research, you will come across another word that can be used together with theos, ho theos which means The God.

There is a problem with this translation into English. As common in English language, God is referred to as The Supreme Being, depending on context. Now following this context, following this line of reasoning how can God have a God?

Let us use reason and logic, how can one who is Supreme, the highest in authority, have another higher?

When you do your research, you will find this is a translation problem.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

No such thing.

2 Pet 1:4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.


Does this mean that believers also have dual nature?

Heb 2:17For this reason He had to be made like His brothers in every way, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.

Every way here mean every way and when we are victorious, we shall also be made to be like Him in every way.
Think about it.

You guys have some really messed up theology, and weird ways of thinking.

Christians partake of the divine nature because they have been joined to Jesus in a spiritual union, and this brings them into the fellowship of the Triune God. They are not God, but they partake of his nature, because they have been joined to Jesus, and become one with Him.

Second, if you claim Jesus isn't God, you are a rank heretic.

Third, if you claim you will become like God, in terms of his deity, you are a rank heretic.

Believers will be like Jesus in terms of being a glorified man, not in terms of being God.

In fact, that's what Mormons and some other cults claim, like the Armstrongites. And their reasoning is very similar. They believe that they will be God because Jesus is God, and they will be like Jesus.

The reality is that true believers will be like Jesus in the sense of being a glorified God, but not like Jesus in the sense of his deity.

 

[Noose]

You guys have some really messed up theology, and weird ways of thinking.

Christians partake of the divine nature because they have been joined to Jesus in a spiritual union, and this brings them into the fellowship of the Triune God. They are not God, but they partake of his nature, because they have been joined to Jesus, and become one with Him.

Second, if you claim Jesus isn't God, you are a rank heretic.

Third, if you claim you will become like God, in terms of his deity, you are a rank heretic.

Believers will be like Jesus in terms of being a glorified man, not in terms of being God.

In fact, that's what Mormons and some other cults claim, like the Armstrongites. And their reasoning is very similar. They believe that they will be God because Jesus is God, and they will be like Jesus.

The reality is that true believers will be like Jesus in the sense of being a glorified God, but not like Jesus in the sense of his deity.

First, you have avoided what i said- Jesus was made to be like us in every way and we shall be made to be like Him in every way.
What the term 'every way' means to you doesn't matter at this stage.

Second, about fellowship:

John 17:
21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one— 23I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.

If your claims that believers are only partakers in the divine nature because they are one with Jesus, then Jesus is also, only a partaker because He is one with the Father.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

First, you have avoided what i said- Jesus was made to be like us in every way and we shall be made to be like Him in every way.
What the term 'every way' means to you doesn't matter at this stage.

Second, about fellowship:

John 17:
21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one— 23I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.

If your claims that believers are only partakers in the divine nature because they are one with Jesus, then Jesus is also, only a partaker because He is one with the Father.

Firstly, union of purpose is one of the aspects of union of nature, but there is nothing in Scripture which teaches man becomes deity.

You are apparently either proposing Jesus is only a man, or that humans become God. Both are false. Jesus is the unique God-man. There is no one like Him.

In fact, the cult I belonged to taught man would become God in the resurrection, which is a false teaching. Men become glorified humans, fit to represent God in the New Heavens and New Earth.