Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

[Locutus]

Now please focus on the "beast" supporting the great harlot false religion. Remember, its a false religion, not a true God/Jesus worshiping faith so this rules out Christianity. It is so important to recognize John's use of the figurative "BEAST." He takes it from Daniel 7 and in Dan 7, the Beast are major historical world powers all of which had dominion over Israel; BABYLON, MEDES AND PERSIANS, GREEKS and ROMANS. So, the Beast CANNOT BE ISRAEL but rather powers OVER ISRAEL.

I don't think I ever said the beast was Israel - you tend to conflate things.

The beast "supported" the harlot - this is precisely the thing we see in the 1st century - Rome is the ruling power over the leaders of Israel - that they were in league with Rome to keep their authority and the peace from the malcontents can't be disputed.

The descriptions John gives about the whore fit 1st century Israel precisely:

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.


Shimon Applebaum in his "The Jewish People in the First Century" has this to say:

"the participation of Jews in Mediterranean trade is well attested. Jewish sailors and traders traveled as far as Spain and Alexandria. The Jews engaged in Maritime enterprise so sufficiently that they organized "guilds" of shipowners to protect themselves from maritime loses."


Jeremias in his book "Jerusalem in the time of Jesus" stated "The national capitol influenced commerce in two ways. It drew trade towards Jerusalem by promoting business transactions, and it provided a ready market for trade because of the heavy demand for luxury clothing, jewelry etc., a demand met by foreign trade"...which consisted of "food supples, precious metals, luxury goods and clothing materials.


Israel's importance as a world trader was the reason that Herod the Great built the artificial sea port city of Caesarea.

It is well known that Syrian and Jewish traders had a large share of foreign commerce under the Roman Empire.

So the description of 1st Century Israel fits well with the description of the harlot with the loss of such a great market.

 

[Locutus]

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

This parallels Jesus' parable:

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

 

[PlainWord]

(Rev 17:16 KJV) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The Beast is Nero and he carries the whore Jerusalem? The Whore is riding the Beast, controlling it. I think Nero would take exception to the idea that Jerusalem was controlling him before he burned her two years after his death.

 

[Locutus]

The whore is not controlling the beast - "riding" the beast does not mean control, the Greek is sitting - being carried by the beast is more appropriate.

The beast is a conglomerate of "beasts"

I could wrongly argue in the same manner how do ALL "ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore....burn her with fire"

You still have not provided the identity of the whore that supposedly Islam is going to burn - unless I missed PL

 

[Locutus]

I'm gonna pull a iamsoandso here with the mark.

How does Islam get to apply the "mark" so people can't buy and sell?

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

And how does the number of a man correlate to a Muslim?

 

[abcdef]

.

Locutus,



Gen 8:22, "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

This shows that there is a time when all the things mentioned will cease.

What will be the event that causes these things to cease?

When will this event happen?



Rev 20:11, "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven flew away; and there was found no place for them."

The fire from heaven v 9, is the last event that takes place on this planet before the last judgement of souls.

Then this heaven and earth "fly away", into the endless void of space.

Then the new heavens and the new earth are seen, the old have passed away.



2 Cor 4:18, "....For the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

The old earth that we see now flies away, the new heaven and earth which are not seen now, are eternal.

==========


Some......When they find truth, rejoice,

Embrace it, and conform their ideas to fit the truth.


Others.....try to change the truth to fit their own past thoughts.


Still others choose to go on, believing and teaching the mistake, trying to deny the truth to themselves, ignoring truth.


Which one of these is you?

The first, who embraces truth, I hope.

 

[Locutus]

The great city in revelation is identified by John in Rev 11:8:

(Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Our Lord was crucified in Jerusalem.

I've listed all the "great city" verses in the pic below with the exception of Rev 21:10:

The rest of the "great city" verses all apply to Jerusalem - if you disagree, then it is upon the "disputer" to identify where John changes the identity from Jerusalem to another city.

 

[Locutus]

The old earth that we see now flies away, the new heaven and earth which are not seen now, are eternal.The old earth that we see now flies away, the new heaven and earth which are not seen now, are eternal.

John is not speaking about the physical earth and heaven - he speaking of the "heaven and earth" created when God gave his words to Israel at Mount Sinai:

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

How can God plant the heavens and lay the foundation of the earth twice?

He already created the physical heavens in Genesis. He never gave the Israelites his word when creating the physical heavens and earth.

 

[abcdef]

He never gave the Israelites his word when creating the physical heavens and earth.

Were there Israelites at the creation?

John is not speaking about the physical earth and heaven - he speaking of the "heaven and earth" created when God gave his words to Israel at Mount Sinai:

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

How can God plant the heavens and lay the foundation of the earth twice?

He already created the physical heavens in Genesis.

Heaven and earth did pass away symbolically, as the old Covenant died on the cross.

The earthquake at Jesus' death, real, physical, material change in the position of the landscape, showed the change in the relationship between God and men.

The final, "end of the age", came when Jerusalem was destroyed and all traces of the old covenant were removed, "not one stone left upon another".

The old covenant died on the cross,

But the final traces were removed by 70 ad. roughly.

====

Revelation was written after 70 ad.

====

The scripture cannot be broken.

2 Cor 4:18, "...things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

This is literal.

But what are the events that is this describing, what other things are going on at this time?

Have you left this event out of your "everything that is written is fulfilled by 70 ad time line". (I already showed you that it isn't true, Gen 8:22)

I have showed you where it happens in my time line, Rev chs 20 &21,

Where is it in your time line?

Can you even explain this scripture to me, by using scripture?

 

[Locutus]

The scripture cannot be broken.

2 Cor 4:18, "...things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

This is literal.

But peoples understanding of scripture sure can be "broken".

2 Cor 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul is dealing with the "Jerusalem" that is above in the heavenlies - it was already in existence when Paul wrote:

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Notice he says "we have", not "will have"

Paul claims it is in the heavens when he wrote "eternal", you have it fleeing and being destroyed.

I have showed you where it happens in my time line, Rev chs 20 &21,

Actually I didn't pay much attention to your time line because I think you have most of the scriptures misinterpreted.

 

[GaryA]

Have you read "War of the Jews" by Josephus? If not, you really should as you would have to go back to the drawing board on much of your beliefs as I was forced to do. Everything, and I mean everything, prior to Mat 24:26 happened in the 66-70 AD time frame. Oh, and everything is in chronological order. However, verse 32-35 give more detail and belong with verses 3-26. If you were to move 32-35 to immediately follow verse 26 you would have it in exact order.

You should add a few years to your 70 A.D. time frame ( i.e. - 66-73 ).

Even though I imagine the things mentioned in verses 9-13 did happen before this time frame, I place the "bulk" of it as beginning during this time frame - especially in the 70 A.D. aftermath...

Let me ask you something. Do you believe that the verses associated with rows 8,10,11,12,16,17 in my chart are describing "great tribulation" events occurring during this timeframe? Yes or No?

 

[GaryA]

Gary, try reading it like this:

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple (30 AD)

24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Jerusalem (66-70 AD)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[SUP][a][/SUP] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[SUP][b][/SUP] and earthquakes in various places. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he who endures to the end shall be saved. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation (of Israel) 70 AD

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The phrase above is talking about the Second Coming of Christ.

You believe that the Second Coming occurred ~70 A.D.?????

( I know you don't, but that is the way it seems you have it written here... )

 

[abcdef]

The great city in revelation is identified by John in Rev 11:8:

(Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Our Lord was crucified in Jerusalem.

I've listed all the "great city" verses in the pic below with the exception of Rev 21:10:

The rest of the "great city" verses all apply to Jerusalem - if you disagree, then it is upon the "disputer" to identify where John changes the identity from Jerusalem to another city.

The woman is a city, Rev 17:18.

Which sits on a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, Rev 17:3.

The beast is the the 4th beast of Dan 7, And the iron legs etc. of Dan 2.

Rome.

Rome ruled Jerusalem.

The 6th head "is", Rev 17:10.

But the woman passes into the time of the 10 horns, kings, nations Rev 17:16.

And these kings/nations are well after the 7 heads have passed,

Which would mean that the woman lived past the dest of Jerusalem, into the time of the 10 nations,

Which it is obvious, that the woman, if Jerusalem, would have not been around during the time of the 10 king/nations,

Having been been destroyed before the time of the 10 kings.

---

Jerusalem did not rule over the kings of the earth at this time.

This is the time of the 4th beast and iron legs,

When the kings of the earth (Israel) were being ruled over by Rome.

---

This woman is seen in the wilderness Rev 17:3,

If it was Jerusalem,

She would not be in the wilderness.

Rome is in the wilderness (lawlessness) of the gentiles,

Jerusalem is home.

---

She is the Mother of harlots Rev 17:5.

Jerusalem is not the origin of false worship, Babylon is, the tower of Babel.

The tower of Babel is where false religion began again after the cleansing flood of Noah's time.

This woman, Babylon religion, existed before Jerusalem was established.

She cannot be Jerusalem, as her lifespan exceeds that of Jerusalem.

---

 

[Locutus]

The woman is a city, Rev 17:18.

Which sits on a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, Rev 17:3.

The beast is the the 4th beast of Dan 7, And the iron legs etc. of Dan 2.---

I asked where John changes the identity from Rev 11:8 to another city:

"The rest of the "great city" verses all apply to Jerusalem - if you disagree, then it is upon the "disputer" to identify where John changes the identity from Jerusalem to another city."

All you've done is "speculate".

 

[abcdef]

But peoples understanding of scripture sure can be "broken".

2 Cor 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul is dealing with the "Jerusalem" that is above in the heavenlies - it was already in existence when Paul wrote:

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Notice he says "we have", not "will have"

Paul claims it is in the heavens when he wrote "eternal"

Yes, it is there now with God.

But you aren't dead yet!

You haven't been through the 2nd resurrection yet!

So you are not there!

you have it fleeing and being destroyed.

No, this material world flies away at the judgement of the souls.

Then the heavenly Jerusalem is revealed, not before then.

(don't twist my words)

Actually I didn't pay much attention to your time line because I think you have most of the scriptures misinterpreted.

But you notice, that I am paying very close attention to your time line.

And you don't care to answer my questions or entire posts.

--

Can you answer my statement that everything was not fulfilled by 70 ad.,

According to the prophecy in Gen 8:22?

 

[abcdef]

I asked where John changes the identity from Rev 11:8 to another city:

"The rest of the "great city" verses all apply to Jerusalem - if you disagree, then it is upon the "disputer" to identify where John changes the identity from Jerusalem to another city."

All you've done is "speculate".

I have given you solid reasons as to why the Harlot of Rev 17 is not Jerusalem, can you answer them?

--

There is more than one woman,

True Jerusalem/Israel Rev ch 12, and the harlot of Rev 17.

Both are great cities, Jerusalem and Rome.

The great city spoken of in Rev 11:8 is Jerusalem,

But in that passage Jerusalem is never said to be a "woman", or referred to in that way.

So the passage cannot be used as if it referred to a woman.

---

Jerusalem is not the only one spoken of as a harlot, Egypt and others also are referred to as harlots.

The harlot is not EXCLUSIVE to Jerusalem and can be used in reference to other nations or cities.

 

[GaryA]

Gary,

Look at the events as laid forth in Luke 17 as they all pertain to the Second Coming. Please note verse 25 is not part of the second coming. Jesus is merely saying that BEFORE He returns, He must first be subjected to suffering (and death):

For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: [SUP]27 [/SUP]They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; [SUP]29 [/SUP]but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. [SUP]31 [/SUP]“In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember Lot’s wife. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

See that? The disciples asked where they were to be taken and Christ answered and said, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together." This corresponds with Mat 24:28 as I showed above and is, "the tribulation of those days." This happens long after the Great Tribulation of the Jews. The Luke 17 version doesn't mention anything about the temple being destroyed or the abomination of desolation or the armies surrounding Jerusalem, right? Those things are found in Luke 21.

Yes - I agree that it is talking about the Second Coming. And - it is future. However, what I have a hard time swallowing is that the events of the verses in row 19 of the chart on my Olivet Discourse page ( including Luke 21:25-26 ) occurred ~70 A.D.

It is even more to swallow that "the tribulation of those days" in Matthew 24:29 is not referring back to the "great tribulation" in verse 21.

So ---- which of the following "those days" do you attribute to "great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 and "affliction" in Mark 13:19?


Matthew 24:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. [SUP]2[/SUP] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. [SUP]3[/SUP] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? [SUP]4[/SUP] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. [SUP]5[/SUP] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. [SUP]6[/SUP] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [SUP]7[/SUP] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. [SUP]8[/SUP] All these are the beginning of sorrows. [SUP]9[/SUP] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. [SUP]10[/SUP] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [SUP]11[/SUP] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [SUP]12[/SUP] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [SUP]13[/SUP] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [SUP]14[/SUP] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. [SUP]15[/SUP] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ( whoso readeth, let him understand: ) [SUP]16[/SUP] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: [SUP]17[/SUP] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: [SUP]18[/SUP] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. [SUP]19[/SUP] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! [SUP]20[/SUP] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: [SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22[/SUP] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. [SUP]23[/SUP] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. [SUP]24[/SUP] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. [SUP]25[/SUP] Behold, I have told you before. [SUP]26[/SUP] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. [SUP]27[/SUP] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [SUP]28[/SUP] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. [SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! [SUP]2[/SUP] And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. [SUP]3[/SUP] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, [SUP]4[/SUP] Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? [SUP]5[/SUP] And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: [SUP]6[/SUP] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. [SUP]7[/SUP] And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. [SUP]8[/SUP] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. [SUP]9[/SUP] But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. [SUP]10[/SUP] And the gospel must first be published among all nations. [SUP]11[/SUP] But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. [SUP]12[/SUP] Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. [SUP]13[/SUP] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [SUP]14[/SUP] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: [SUP]15[/SUP] And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: [SUP]16[/SUP] And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. [SUP]17[/SUP] But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! [SUP]18[/SUP] And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. [SUP]19[/SUP] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. [SUP]20[/SUP] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. [SUP]21[/SUP] And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: [SUP]22[/SUP] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. [SUP]23[/SUP] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. [SUP]24[/SUP] But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, [SUP]25[/SUP] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. [SUP]26[/SUP] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. [SUP]27[/SUP] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


In the context of the whole passage, why should verse 29 in Matthew or verse 24 in Mark be an exception?

The verses of Matthew 24:23-28 are a descriptive 'aside' ( of sorts; partially ), but do not "break" the "flow" of the overall context of the passage. The phrase "those days" in verse 29 is talking about the same "those days" referred to in verse 22. The fact that 'tribulation' is correlated to / with "those days" in both places actually strengthens it. ( I am speaking here in terms of the 'grammar of the language'. )

 

[Timeline]

I assume that you a thoroughly familiar with the Old Testament.

If so, then read through Revelation 17 and 18 - notice how it repeatedly points to Jerusalem.

I can not read through it without seeing multiple references to Jerusalem...and I am quite sure that I am missing some.

Kings and Nations throughout the OT are made wealthy from Israel (until Israel/Judah return to God - then they tend to be punished on Israel's behalf).

The most of the cargoes are things that were to be used according to the Law of Moses.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” matches quite nicely with Luke 11:49-51 49 For this reason also the wisdom of God said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.’

I am not sure exactly how this plays out and when (though I believe that it was during the 1st century), I am quite certain that this is Jerusalem.

 

[Timeline]

Also the beast of Rev 13 seems to be a conglomerate of the beasts of Daniel 7.

 

[ba_christian]

First, I would like to remind everyone on this post of this:

2 Timothy 2:24 (ESV)
24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,

1 Corinthians 16:14 (ESV)
14 Let all that you do be done in love.

1 John 3:18 (ESV)
18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

Second, if Christ already returned and there is no second coming, these verses become false, making God a liar (1 Jn. 5:10). Additionally, how did the entire world miss an event such as that describing Christ’s return?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (ESV)
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 (ESV)
7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.


Third, seeking man’s wisdom, which is foolishness (1 Cor. 3:19) by following teachings such as those described in this post is the definition of seeking to establish one’s own righteousness and not that which comes from God (Rom. 10:3), as well as going to man rather than God as in Isaiah 30/31.

John 16:13 (ESV)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.