-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A
He was having a vision....it wasn't abnormal back then to have visions.
Folks only started locking people in loony bins now.
If we look at Saul on the road, he was talking to a person no one else could hear or see...all they saw was a bright light.
Since John was alone, it's hard to say more about how he would appear to others.
Was he physically taken to heaven?
I don't think so, but with God anything is possible.
It says "in the Spirit" So suggests that only his spirit traveled and not his body like Enoch or Elijah.
One of the old testament prophets saw a vision only in spirit. Forgot which one but God showed him the temple.
Folks only started locking people in loony bins now.
If we look at Saul on the road, he was talking to a person no one else could hear or see...all they saw was a bright light.
Since John was alone, it's hard to say more about how he would appear to others.
Was he physically taken to heaven?
I don't think so, but with God anything is possible.
It says "in the Spirit" So suggests that only his spirit traveled and not his body like Enoch or Elijah.
One of the old testament prophets saw a vision only in spirit. Forgot which one but God showed him the temple.
Seriously? You guys actually think he was just boppin' down the road on his donkey, and just thought he would mention that, "Oh, yeah, I was in the Spirit..."? You honestly don't think that while he was doing all this turning around to talk to voices that sounded like trumpets, and seeing all these multi-headed creatures, and mounted armies, and looking at blood, waist deep, that he was just having his usual day?
L
uh...he didn't say he was riding a donkey...since he was in exile, I doubt he had one...
I think people knew what he meant by 'in the spirit' and so didn't have to classify it
I wasn't there...but Paul said he knew a man brought up to the 3rd heaven and he did not know whether it was in the flesh or spirit
so...
what if I told you that while in prayer, I saw what I think was the devil as a great nasty beast climbing towards Jerusalem and desiring to destroy the Jews? just before the 7 days war?
and other stuff but I don't talk about my other stuff...I doubt John expected what he saw and as he said, he was in the spirit
I think people knew what he meant by 'in the spirit' and so didn't have to classify it
I wasn't there...but Paul said he knew a man brought up to the 3rd heaven and he did not know whether it was in the flesh or spirit
so...
what if I told you that while in prayer, I saw what I think was the devil as a great nasty beast climbing towards Jerusalem and desiring to destroy the Jews? just before the 7 days war?
and other stuff but I don't talk about my other stuff...I doubt John expected what he saw and as he said, he was in the spirit
A
Patmos (BiblePlaces.com) – BiblePlaces.com
He is in exile. Where did the donkey come from?
He is in exile. Where did the donkey come from?
A
Acts 9
As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
L
hey
I already mentioned the donkey LOL!
I'm serious when I say that 'in the spirit' was probably not an unknown quantity back then
anyway, I don't suppose it really matters or will change anything
other than that some folks want to talk about dreams and visions all the time but I don't personally ascribe most of what I hear them saying as from God...I don't mean Willie here, but he does like to point out that God does these kings of things
but I'm a skeptic, eh?
I already mentioned the donkey LOL!
I'm serious when I say that 'in the spirit' was probably not an unknown quantity back then
anyway, I don't suppose it really matters or will change anything
other than that some folks want to talk about dreams and visions all the time but I don't personally ascribe most of what I hear them saying as from God...I don't mean Willie here, but he does like to point out that God does these kings of things
but I'm a skeptic, eh?
L
what narrow road? work with us here
[FONT="]The First Vision.[g] [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]9 I, John, your brother, who share with you the distress, the kingdom, and the endurance we have in Jesus, found myself on the island called Patmos[h] because I proclaimed God’s word and gave testimony to Jesus. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]10 I was caught up in spirit on the Lord’s day[i] and heard behind me a voice as loud as a trumpet, [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]11 which said, “Write on a scroll[j] what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”
[/FONT][FONT="]since I am being ignored guess I'll just wander off and cause trouble somewhere else
here donkey donkey[/FONT]
[FONT="]The First Vision.[g] [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]9 I, John, your brother, who share with you the distress, the kingdom, and the endurance we have in Jesus, found myself on the island called Patmos[h] because I proclaimed God’s word and gave testimony to Jesus. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]10 I was caught up in spirit on the Lord’s day[i] and heard behind me a voice as loud as a trumpet, [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]11 which said, “Write on a scroll[j] what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”
[/FONT][FONT="]since I am being ignored guess I'll just wander off and cause trouble somewhere else
here donkey donkey[/FONT]
Ok, having skimmed it all, I'ma just going to buckshot this...
Is it entirely crazy to think that prophecy was not only fulfilled in 70 ad, but will be again in the future?
Does not scripture say that on the new earth there will be nations of people who live outside of New Jerusalem?
Does John being whacked out of his mind (or however Willie put it) make his testimony less true?
(And is a 30 year adjustment just too dang convenient)?
Is the 1000 year reign of Christ really 2000 years long?
Would sin continue steamrolling along in an environment where Christ ruled and satan was bound?
Could those who think they are not going to see tribulation judgments go apostate when they find themselves smack in the middle of it?
Could Matt be a little clearer on where he stands?
Are human blonds immune from all of this?
And, do you have to be a natural blond or can I color my hair?
Is it entirely crazy to think that prophecy was not only fulfilled in 70 ad, but will be again in the future?
Does not scripture say that on the new earth there will be nations of people who live outside of New Jerusalem?
Does John being whacked out of his mind (or however Willie put it) make his testimony less true?
(And is a 30 year adjustment just too dang convenient)?
Is the 1000 year reign of Christ really 2000 years long?
Would sin continue steamrolling along in an environment where Christ ruled and satan was bound?
Could those who think they are not going to see tribulation judgments go apostate when they find themselves smack in the middle of it?
Could Matt be a little clearer on where he stands?
Are human blonds immune from all of this?
And, do you have to be a natural blond or can I color my hair?
M
Where the Bible refers to "stars" falling from the sky...it's the same figure of speech anyone else uses when they see a "shooting star" and refer to it as such. In the year 2017 do we not know that a "falling star" is merely a pebble-sized meteorite? Of course we know that. But we still routinely refer to a "shooting star". You're trying to limit the Bible from having the same freedom to alternate between figures of speech and literalness...that any other literature has.
The sun "goes dark" all the time...during eclipses. Maybe God will cause this particular darkening to be a bit more pronounced but...the world has not collapsed during an eclipse. And apparently according to the rest of Revelation, the sun's darkening was not much more than a momentary thing.
But...you keep jumping around! What happened to our discussion about how much room there is in the New Jerusalem? And in any case...I was looking for points of agreement, not disagreement.
The sun "goes dark" all the time...during eclipses. Maybe God will cause this particular darkening to be a bit more pronounced but...the world has not collapsed during an eclipse. And apparently according to the rest of Revelation, the sun's darkening was not much more than a momentary thing.
But...you keep jumping around! What happened to our discussion about how much room there is in the New Jerusalem? And in any case...I was looking for points of agreement, not disagreement.
E
Actually the idea that we are made to live on earth not in heaven stems from the Bible.
For instance: in the Roman Catholic Douay Version of the Holy Bible, we read (Genesis 2:7-15):
“And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth, and breathed into his face the breath of life;... And the Lord God had planted a paradise of pleasure from the beginning: wherein he placed man whom he had formed. And the Lord God brought forth of the ground all manner of trees, fair to behold, and pleasant to eat of: the tree of life also in the midst of paradise: and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And a river went out of the place of pleasure to water paradise, which from thence is divided into four heads. . . . And the Lord God took man, and put him into the paradise of pleasure, to dress it, and to keep it.”
Adam and eve were given only two choice to live on earth or to die, no mention of heaven.
Also When Adam’s godly son Abel was murdered by his jealous brother Cain, Abel did not get into Paradise; but his blood cried out to God from the ground outside the Paradise of Eden.—Gen. 4:1-11.
In an article on Paradise The Encyclopedia Americana (Volume 21) opens with the words: “the garden of Eden. The word is originally Persian and signifies a park. It has been introduced into modern languages as a name for the garden of Eden . . . and hence of any abode of happiness.”
There are many scriptures indicating that it was God's purpose to have mankind live on the earth, for instance (Psalm 37:11) . . .But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. . .
Since this purpose was never rescinded why should we believe that God changed his mind?
For instance: in the Roman Catholic Douay Version of the Holy Bible, we read (Genesis 2:7-15):
“And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth, and breathed into his face the breath of life;... And the Lord God had planted a paradise of pleasure from the beginning: wherein he placed man whom he had formed. And the Lord God brought forth of the ground all manner of trees, fair to behold, and pleasant to eat of: the tree of life also in the midst of paradise: and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And a river went out of the place of pleasure to water paradise, which from thence is divided into four heads. . . . And the Lord God took man, and put him into the paradise of pleasure, to dress it, and to keep it.”
Adam and eve were given only two choice to live on earth or to die, no mention of heaven.
Also When Adam’s godly son Abel was murdered by his jealous brother Cain, Abel did not get into Paradise; but his blood cried out to God from the ground outside the Paradise of Eden.—Gen. 4:1-11.
In an article on Paradise The Encyclopedia Americana (Volume 21) opens with the words: “the garden of Eden. The word is originally Persian and signifies a park. It has been introduced into modern languages as a name for the garden of Eden . . . and hence of any abode of happiness.”
There are many scriptures indicating that it was God's purpose to have mankind live on the earth, for instance (Psalm 37:11) . . .But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. . .
Since this purpose was never rescinded why should we believe that God changed his mind?
Spaced out:
dazed or stupefied because of the influence of narcotic drugs.
2.dreamily or eerily out of touch with reality or seemingly so; spacey.
Maybe the problem is the expression spaced out. To me it has always meant somebody on drugs, but I realize you did not mean it like that, so I apologize if I was harsh.
I still think it is a stupid thing to say. John was one of the bulwarks of the Church. These men prayed and fasted for days and weeks. What trials and tribulations they went through I can't even begin to imagine. John was put in a pot of boiling oil shortly before his exile. Are you sure you want to demean him in any way shape or form?
And calling me a game-player is a bit weak WT. Sorry, I don't like that.
Not understanding something is not an excuse to assume it is garbage.
dazed or stupefied because of the influence of narcotic drugs.
2.dreamily or eerily out of touch with reality or seemingly so; spacey.
Maybe the problem is the expression spaced out. To me it has always meant somebody on drugs, but I realize you did not mean it like that, so I apologize if I was harsh.
I still think it is a stupid thing to say. John was one of the bulwarks of the Church. These men prayed and fasted for days and weeks. What trials and tribulations they went through I can't even begin to imagine. John was put in a pot of boiling oil shortly before his exile. Are you sure you want to demean him in any way shape or form?
And calling me a game-player is a bit weak WT. Sorry, I don't like that.
Not understanding something is not an excuse to assume it is garbage.
Last edited:
Nero's death led to a short time of extreme political turmoil in the Roman Empire. First was the Year of the 4 Emperors. Roman General Vespasian was called back from the Holy Land wars against the Jews then to become Emperor and provide some stability. He ruled as Emperor until A.D. 79, when he died. Vespasian's son Titus ruled then as Emperor until his premature death in 82 A.D. just a couple of years later. After Titus, Vespasius' next oldest son, Domition, ruled as Emperor for an especially long tenure of 15 years.
But...even given that his reign was long and somewhat stable compared to its predecessors...it can still be said that Domition, A.D. 81 to A.D. 96, was no slacker in the 'crazy emperor' category from a Christian perspective. He was hard on Christians!!
A Bust of Domitian, a Roman Emperor and a Persecutor of Christians
He soon enough had himself declared a 'god' and demanded to be treated as such in various ways. And he was a somewhat paranoid 'king'. So, when he became aware that the Christians, who were performing so many amazing miracles within the boundaries of the Roman Empire, were looking forward to the return of their great King he did what he could to keep that 'great King' from wrecking his own reign. He began a persecution against Christians throughout the Empire and killed many.
In particular Domition sought relatives and close associates of Jesus to execute. For instance, he found relatives of Jude, Jesus' brother, and had them killed according to some church traditions.
In fact, he also heard that John - a close and well loved disciple of Jesus - was in Ephesus working with a church there (this was the John who was destined to receive the vision recounted in the Book of Revelation.)
This is not found in the Bible, but a church writer named Tertullian makes mention of it in the 36th chapter of a book that he authored called "The Prescription of the Heretics". John Foxe in the 1583 edition of his 'Book of Martyrs' also mentions it, in the early church martyrs section. And early church father Jerome made reference to Tertullian saying it.
So, according to certain of these just mentioned early church writers, and early church traditions, Domition had John brought to him, and proposed to make a spectacle of him in the Collliseum as he murdered (or executed) John for his Christian related crimes. Other sources say this event occurred at what is called the Latin Gate, and not in the Colliseum. Those sources both agree, however, that the crowd that saw what happened demanded that John be released when it became obvious that he was unharmed.
Emperor Domition decided to have a vat of oil heated up to boiling (actually, you heat oil up until it begins to 'smoke'. If you get it much hotter, the vapors can ignite, and the surface of the oil catches fire) and then Domitian had John plunged into this hot vat of oil in front of the Colliseum or Latin Gate crowd. Christian persecution was quite a crowd pleaser back in those days of the not yet very converted Roman Empire, and Christians met many grisly ends within the Colliseum and in other various empire locations to entertain the on looking Roman spectators. Christians were painted as cannabalistic villains and disrespecters of the various Roman gods, among other villainies.
Naturally we do not know which type of oil they boiled him in. According to a Yahoo answers posting the different oils boil at quite different temperatures. Safflower oil boils at 510 deg F., Peanut oil at about 440 deg F, and Olive oil at about 375 deg F. Water, as we know, boils at 212 deg F at sea level, so John could conceivably have been submerged in oil that was at twice the temperature of boiling water, if it was a vegetable type oil that was used.
But, when introduced into the boiling vat of oil John did not react as expected to the torturous heat. He was preaching as he was introduced to the oil and some sources say that as the crowd watched to see him begin screaming and struggling he instead went on preaching about Jesus. And as the seconds became more seconds and I suppose minutes it became clear that John was not in agony....or pain....or discomfort. He just preached.
And though there is not much surviving written detail about this event (that I have so far found) it is none the less claimed that, of those who were among the crowd of spectators in the Colliseum or the Latin Gate that day, many converted to Christianity because of what they saw.
***A chapel named 'San Giovanni in Oleo' still stands in Rome to commemorate the event. The gate you see behind it is the Latin Gate. Whether the attempted boiling of John in oil occurred at the Latin Gate or the Colliseum is hard to determine. The chapel standing today is not so ancient, but is definately at the Latin Gate. Yet it is unlikely that a chapel could have been built within the Colliseum, had this incident occurred there, though perhaps it could have been built just outside. ***
As for John, he was removed unharmed from the oil at some point, and Domition's plan 'B' was to have John sent to the isle of Pathmos to work at hard labor. It was there that John eventually was given the vision that we know from the Book of Revelation. It is the great prophetic end times book that Christians have puzzled over for these many centuries. It is also different than other Bible books in that it specifically states that it offers a blessing to whichever churches read it aloud together.
A later Roman Emperor pardoned John and so he was allowed to leave Pathmos and return to work at the church of Ephesus.
John is said by some sources to be the only Apostle of Jesus' that experienced a natural death....the only who was not martyred. It is said that the John who received the vision of Revelation from Jesus died at an old age - some say 94 years old, and some say 99 years old, near the end of the first century A.D. His tomb is said to lie in a town named Selcuk near Ephesus. (There are some writings, though, that say that he was martyred, at the end of his long life, but they appear to be the minority.)
Tradition says that earlier on in his life John took care of Mary, Jesus mother, as Jesus had asked him to, living with her on the island of Cyprus until her death, and the Eastern Orthodox church believes that John, Mary the Mother of Jesus, and Mary Magdalene all died there on Cyprus. Catholic tradition differs. It has Mary Magdalene dying in a Christian community in France to which she traveled prior to her death. I have not researched these conflicting claims yet, and it appears that learning exactly what happened would be quite difficult, so ....?? Who knows?
But, it appears that Jesus had plans for the John that was placed into a vat of boiling oil, and when God decides that you will not die, then you simply will not die! Strong food for thought....since we are told that those who repent of their sins, ask Jesus to be their Lord, become baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and then follow Jesus' teachings, telling others the good news of the Gospel as they go....we are told and believe that those of us who can manage to complete that task successfully shall never die! And if God says you won't die.......well, you just will not, as John and Daniel, and Daniel's three friends, and others have shown us from the pages of the Bible, and from the annals of history!
Christianity! So much proof from so many quarters.....yet still we men follow but poorly if at all, do we not?
But...even given that his reign was long and somewhat stable compared to its predecessors...it can still be said that Domition, A.D. 81 to A.D. 96, was no slacker in the 'crazy emperor' category from a Christian perspective. He was hard on Christians!!
A Bust of Domitian, a Roman Emperor and a Persecutor of Christians
He soon enough had himself declared a 'god' and demanded to be treated as such in various ways. And he was a somewhat paranoid 'king'. So, when he became aware that the Christians, who were performing so many amazing miracles within the boundaries of the Roman Empire, were looking forward to the return of their great King he did what he could to keep that 'great King' from wrecking his own reign. He began a persecution against Christians throughout the Empire and killed many.
In particular Domition sought relatives and close associates of Jesus to execute. For instance, he found relatives of Jude, Jesus' brother, and had them killed according to some church traditions.
In fact, he also heard that John - a close and well loved disciple of Jesus - was in Ephesus working with a church there (this was the John who was destined to receive the vision recounted in the Book of Revelation.)
This is not found in the Bible, but a church writer named Tertullian makes mention of it in the 36th chapter of a book that he authored called "The Prescription of the Heretics". John Foxe in the 1583 edition of his 'Book of Martyrs' also mentions it, in the early church martyrs section. And early church father Jerome made reference to Tertullian saying it.
So, according to certain of these just mentioned early church writers, and early church traditions, Domition had John brought to him, and proposed to make a spectacle of him in the Collliseum as he murdered (or executed) John for his Christian related crimes. Other sources say this event occurred at what is called the Latin Gate, and not in the Colliseum. Those sources both agree, however, that the crowd that saw what happened demanded that John be released when it became obvious that he was unharmed.
Emperor Domition decided to have a vat of oil heated up to boiling (actually, you heat oil up until it begins to 'smoke'. If you get it much hotter, the vapors can ignite, and the surface of the oil catches fire) and then Domitian had John plunged into this hot vat of oil in front of the Colliseum or Latin Gate crowd. Christian persecution was quite a crowd pleaser back in those days of the not yet very converted Roman Empire, and Christians met many grisly ends within the Colliseum and in other various empire locations to entertain the on looking Roman spectators. Christians were painted as cannabalistic villains and disrespecters of the various Roman gods, among other villainies.
Naturally we do not know which type of oil they boiled him in. According to a Yahoo answers posting the different oils boil at quite different temperatures. Safflower oil boils at 510 deg F., Peanut oil at about 440 deg F, and Olive oil at about 375 deg F. Water, as we know, boils at 212 deg F at sea level, so John could conceivably have been submerged in oil that was at twice the temperature of boiling water, if it was a vegetable type oil that was used.
But, when introduced into the boiling vat of oil John did not react as expected to the torturous heat. He was preaching as he was introduced to the oil and some sources say that as the crowd watched to see him begin screaming and struggling he instead went on preaching about Jesus. And as the seconds became more seconds and I suppose minutes it became clear that John was not in agony....or pain....or discomfort. He just preached.
And though there is not much surviving written detail about this event (that I have so far found) it is none the less claimed that, of those who were among the crowd of spectators in the Colliseum or the Latin Gate that day, many converted to Christianity because of what they saw.
***A chapel named 'San Giovanni in Oleo' still stands in Rome to commemorate the event. The gate you see behind it is the Latin Gate. Whether the attempted boiling of John in oil occurred at the Latin Gate or the Colliseum is hard to determine. The chapel standing today is not so ancient, but is definately at the Latin Gate. Yet it is unlikely that a chapel could have been built within the Colliseum, had this incident occurred there, though perhaps it could have been built just outside. ***
As for John, he was removed unharmed from the oil at some point, and Domition's plan 'B' was to have John sent to the isle of Pathmos to work at hard labor. It was there that John eventually was given the vision that we know from the Book of Revelation. It is the great prophetic end times book that Christians have puzzled over for these many centuries. It is also different than other Bible books in that it specifically states that it offers a blessing to whichever churches read it aloud together.
A later Roman Emperor pardoned John and so he was allowed to leave Pathmos and return to work at the church of Ephesus.
John is said by some sources to be the only Apostle of Jesus' that experienced a natural death....the only who was not martyred. It is said that the John who received the vision of Revelation from Jesus died at an old age - some say 94 years old, and some say 99 years old, near the end of the first century A.D. His tomb is said to lie in a town named Selcuk near Ephesus. (There are some writings, though, that say that he was martyred, at the end of his long life, but they appear to be the minority.)
Tradition says that earlier on in his life John took care of Mary, Jesus mother, as Jesus had asked him to, living with her on the island of Cyprus until her death, and the Eastern Orthodox church believes that John, Mary the Mother of Jesus, and Mary Magdalene all died there on Cyprus. Catholic tradition differs. It has Mary Magdalene dying in a Christian community in France to which she traveled prior to her death. I have not researched these conflicting claims yet, and it appears that learning exactly what happened would be quite difficult, so ....?? Who knows?
But, it appears that Jesus had plans for the John that was placed into a vat of boiling oil, and when God decides that you will not die, then you simply will not die! Strong food for thought....since we are told that those who repent of their sins, ask Jesus to be their Lord, become baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and then follow Jesus' teachings, telling others the good news of the Gospel as they go....we are told and believe that those of us who can manage to complete that task successfully shall never die! And if God says you won't die.......well, you just will not, as John and Daniel, and Daniel's three friends, and others have shown us from the pages of the Bible, and from the annals of history!
Christianity! So much proof from so many quarters.....yet still we men follow but poorly if at all, do we not?