I have a problem with this as well Phil, but probably not as strongly as you. People have from time to time tried to get me to say that I or we killed Jesus. I do not like this. Jesus died for all of us. Jesus said no one takes my life, but I give it up. This was God's plan from the beginning and I am thankful. I don't know what I would have done if I had been there, but I probably would have stood by and watched or spoke to friends about how I didn't approve while I did nothing more than that. But I do agree that it is silly to try to get someone to say they killed Jesus.
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T
But think about it - was this not all part of God's Plan? The plan to Glorify God?
1 Petr 4:11 : "That God in all Things may be Glorified"
You know this whole event was written long before the foundation of the earth - we have the antagonist and the protagonist, the plot, the climax and we finally have the happy ending. Its all right there in front of us.
The emotional Climax came at this point: Luke 23:46
46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last breath.
And creation held its breath, JUST imagine, all of creation, the whole world, animals, insects, even the heavenly hosts grew silent. TIME SEIZED TO EXIST.
WAKE UP CALL !! Helloooo guess what, this isn't Braveheart, where William Wallace died - the story goes on...
Luke 24:4-8 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel. And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.” And they remembered his words...
FOCUS PEOPLE...
This was God's divine plan all along, it was all to Glorify his name, through our trials and through our sins when they are overcome God's Glory is magnified in those testimonies, and as time goes on He will always be glorified. It was never about us, or how we lived or died, but it was always about God. The great "I AM"
And the End of Day will come together with this one statement : Revelations 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
1 Petr 4:11 : "That God in all Things may be Glorified"
You know this whole event was written long before the foundation of the earth - we have the antagonist and the protagonist, the plot, the climax and we finally have the happy ending. Its all right there in front of us.
The emotional Climax came at this point: Luke 23:46
46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last breath.
And creation held its breath, JUST imagine, all of creation, the whole world, animals, insects, even the heavenly hosts grew silent. TIME SEIZED TO EXIST.
WAKE UP CALL !! Helloooo guess what, this isn't Braveheart, where William Wallace died - the story goes on...
Luke 24:4-8 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel. And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.” And they remembered his words...
FOCUS PEOPLE...
This was God's divine plan all along, it was all to Glorify his name, through our trials and through our sins when they are overcome God's Glory is magnified in those testimonies, and as time goes on He will always be glorified. It was never about us, or how we lived or died, but it was always about God. The great "I AM"
And the End of Day will come together with this one statement : Revelations 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
Ok so I'm going to go through speeches in Acts and see who all was told they killed Jesus by Paul and the apostles:
Acts 2:22-24, 36 - spoken to the crowd at Pentecost (this can be argued either way since though we know the crowd spoke many native languages and came from every country, we don't know if Peter spoke in a common language they all understood or if they had all been in town approximately 2 months earlier when Jesus was crucified)
Acts 3:13-15- in the temple after healing the lame man probably an audience of mostly Jerusalem locals
Acts 4:10 - Addressing the Sanhedrin who were definitely directly involved
Acts 5:30 - Again to the Sanhedrin
Acts 7:52- Stephen before the Sanhedrin
That's it. There's no Biblical record of Cornelius (a roman soldier) nor any Jews in synagogues outside of Jerusalem where Paul preached, nor any Gentile converts being told they were killers of Jesus. If that's how the apostles saw it, I'm not going to argue, just be grateful that Jesus was willing to die for me.
Acts 2:22-24, 36 - spoken to the crowd at Pentecost (this can be argued either way since though we know the crowd spoke many native languages and came from every country, we don't know if Peter spoke in a common language they all understood or if they had all been in town approximately 2 months earlier when Jesus was crucified)
Acts 3:13-15- in the temple after healing the lame man probably an audience of mostly Jerusalem locals
Acts 4:10 - Addressing the Sanhedrin who were definitely directly involved
Acts 5:30 - Again to the Sanhedrin
Acts 7:52- Stephen before the Sanhedrin
That's it. There's no Biblical record of Cornelius (a roman soldier) nor any Jews in synagogues outside of Jerusalem where Paul preached, nor any Gentile converts being told they were killers of Jesus. If that's how the apostles saw it, I'm not going to argue, just be grateful that Jesus was willing to die for me.
OP i understand your point and agree. only those who were there and arranged for and participated in his MURDER are responsible.
that God ordained he die (be put to death) for our sins is NOT the same as being held accountable for actually murdering him.
apokteinó or apoktennó
1 Thessalonians 2
13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 14For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they haveof the Jews: 15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
apokteinó or apoktennó
Mark 6
18 For John had said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife.
19 Therefore Herodias had a quarrel against him, and would have killed him; but she could not:
20 For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly
same word. murder.
that God ordained he die (be put to death) for our sins is NOT the same as being held accountable for actually murdering him.
apokteinó or apoktennó
1 Thessalonians 2
13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 14For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they haveof the Jews: 15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
apokteinó or apoktennó
Mark 6
18 For John had said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife.
19 Therefore Herodias had a quarrel against him, and would have killed him; but she could not:
20 For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly
same word. murder.
J
we are murdering Jesus everyday when we move into world and don't Go in God's way.
"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Not only we are the reason for His death,but we do it again and again when we sin now and then..
So its happening now also.
"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Not only we are the reason for His death,but we do it again and again when we sin now and then..
So its happening now also.
why would you use that passage out of context? it's referring to israelites who refused to enter God's promised rest, the final promise, Jesus Christ. if they turned away from the gospel, and back to the old covenant which was passing away, they were putting him to open shame, re-crucifying him, just as HIS MURDERERS did.
the OP is correct.
the OP is correct.
J
hahahahah,,,you think Jesus interceding for us is an easy thing?
He is blocking the wrath of God sitting on the Right Hand of God..till the Day The Father tells Him to Go and Gather the Saints.(Second Coming)...
"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost," [/FONT]...that Holy Spirit (which came by the intervention of Jesus in flesh)Israel rejected.Its not about Israelites...Read carefully...
He is blocking the wrath of God sitting on the Right Hand of God..till the Day The Father tells Him to Go and Gather the Saints.(Second Coming)...
"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost," [/FONT]...that Holy Spirit (which came by the intervention of Jesus in flesh)Israel rejected.Its not about Israelites...Read carefully...
Isaiah 53, Ezekiel 18 and Romans 6 together establish Jesus taking on the wages due us for our sin on himself, 2 Corinthians 5, 1 Peter 2 and Romans 8 establish Christ taking on our sin in himself. I could go on, but from each of these passages flows an inexorable logic - if not for our sin, there would have been no need for Christ to die. It is striking that the passages I mention make no mention of Adam's sin (as important as it is) - instead, i makes mentnion of Christ taking on OUR sin, of paying OUR wages in OUR place. The whole OT concept of the scapegoat makes that clear.
So the logic is simple. If people did not sin, Christ would not have to die. If we did not provide the bullets and played around with dangeorouss weapons, there would be nothing for Christ to have to dive in front of. So we're clear, I am not saying God hold's us responsible for our father's sins (although reading Exodus 20 gives an interesting contour to that teaching) - the Bible is clear that the sins we are judged for are our own. I sin, you sin, and it is those sins that we must pay for, even given the fact that the only reason we sin in the first place is because we are descended from previous humans tainted by sin.
So the logic is simple. If people did not sin, Christ would not have to die. If we did not provide the bullets and played around with dangeorouss weapons, there would be nothing for Christ to have to dive in front of. So we're clear, I am not saying God hold's us responsible for our father's sins (although reading Exodus 20 gives an interesting contour to that teaching) - the Bible is clear that the sins we are judged for are our own. I sin, you sin, and it is those sins that we must pay for, even given the fact that the only reason we sin in the first place is because we are descended from previous humans tainted by sin.
P
That is your logic. Logic will also tell you that if Adam hadn't sinned and brought sin into the world, then we wouldn't be born into sin, and we wouldn't be sinners. None of which changes the simple fact that Christ dying to free us from a death by sin does not make us co-murderers with the jews who plotted His death.
My disagreement completely hinges on someone saying "my hand held the nails while they were driven into Christ hands", or I helped pound those nails into Christ's hands".
That is simply not true.
I would die to save my children from being killed, but that does not make them complicit in my death. That is irrefutable logic, legally and biblically.
My disagreement completely hinges on someone saying "my hand held the nails while they were driven into Christ hands", or I helped pound those nails into Christ's hands".
That is simply not true.
I would die to save my children from being killed, but that does not make them complicit in my death. That is irrefutable logic, legally and biblically.
That seems to be a faulty analogy. Your children were completely innocent in respect to your death to save them.
Whereas Adam's action of disobedience made him guilty and required Christ's death in order to save Adam.
Were we not in Adam? Would we have not done the same as Adam? The guilt is ours as well.
Whereas Adam's action of disobedience made him guilty and required Christ's death in order to save Adam.
Were we not in Adam? Would we have not done the same as Adam? The guilt is ours as well.
As I said earlier, I agree with the point that we did not literally help pound the nails into his hands, or were complicit in the murderous act itself. Patently, we were not. But you seem to go so far the other that you don't appreciate the gravity of our role in Christ's death, which the image of putting Christ on the cross is designed to illustrate. Your analogies in the OP, and directly above, are incomplete. I will rephrase it in a more direct question, that perhaps you will in turn answer directly:
Would you agree that a more accurate analogy in the above case would be you saving your children by serving the death penalty in their place for some crime they had committed, assuming that such a swap was legally permissible in any actual legal system practiced today?
If yes, would you agree that this illustrates the biblical case, describing that the actions of humans (not simply by Adam, but individual humans as the passages I posted earlier make clear) directly incur the wrath of God as a matter of justice, and that logically Christ would not have had to give himself up to the cross if there had not been that sin, and thus judgement.
If you can agree to those, I have no problem with anything you've posted, and I will happily bow out of this thread.
Would you agree that a more accurate analogy in the above case would be you saving your children by serving the death penalty in their place for some crime they had committed, assuming that such a swap was legally permissible in any actual legal system practiced today?
If yes, would you agree that this illustrates the biblical case, describing that the actions of humans (not simply by Adam, but individual humans as the passages I posted earlier make clear) directly incur the wrath of God as a matter of justice, and that logically Christ would not have had to give himself up to the cross if there had not been that sin, and thus judgement.
If you can agree to those, I have no problem with anything you've posted, and I will happily bow out of this thread.
but is this referring to you personally:
Acts 2
22 “My fellow Israelites, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you. He proved it by the miracles, wonders, and miraculous signs he did through Jesus. You all saw these things, so you know this is true. 23 Jesus was handed over to you, and you killed him. With the help of evil men, you nailed him to a cross.
peter doesnt even include himself in Christs murder. why would you.
Acts 2
22 “My fellow Israelites, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you. He proved it by the miracles, wonders, and miraculous signs he did through Jesus. You all saw these things, so you know this is true. 23 Jesus was handed over to you, and you killed him. With the help of evil men, you nailed him to a cross.
peter doesnt even include himself in Christs murder. why would you.
Acts 4:25-28 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
If you are trying to single out the Jews I don't buy it as the above verse shows. Besides, God foreordained it before the foundation of the world...it had to be to save us from our sins.
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
If you are trying to single out the Jews I don't buy it as the above verse shows. Besides, God foreordained it before the foundation of the world...it had to be to save us from our sins.
J
I have to agree with nick01, the analogy is faulty. I think a better analogy would be a robber shoots a child in the coarse of a robbery and the father of said child takes the death sentence allowing the robber to walk free. Did the robber kill the father with his own hands? In the most literal sense no but in a moral sense yes.
We are the robber callously brutalizing the Father's heart:
Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge. Psalm 51:4
The verdict from The Just Judge was death. We deserve the death that Jesus withstood and eternity apart from God:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
But Jesus took our death upon himself willingly so that even the actual literal murderers were doing the work of God. If you or I had been there and tried to stop it we would have been doing the work of the devil.
22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You." 23But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's." Matt. 16:22
So my thoughts are that no one can say they took Jesus' life not even the soldiers who actually drove the nails in (John 10:18) but we are the reason He layed it down
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
These are just my thoughts on the matter and I thank you for bringing up a subject that I had never thought to think about
We are the robber callously brutalizing the Father's heart:
Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge. Psalm 51:4
The verdict from The Just Judge was death. We deserve the death that Jesus withstood and eternity apart from God:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
But Jesus took our death upon himself willingly so that even the actual literal murderers were doing the work of God. If you or I had been there and tried to stop it we would have been doing the work of the devil.
22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You." 23But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's." Matt. 16:22
So my thoughts are that no one can say they took Jesus' life not even the soldiers who actually drove the nails in (John 10:18) but we are the reason He layed it down
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
These are just my thoughts on the matter and I thank you for bringing up a subject that I had never thought to think about
excuse me: With the help of evil men, you nailed him to a cross.
i know the scriptures. and i know it was foreordained. that doesnt mean you murdered christ. you werent there.
whats this single out the jews. it says what it says and it names names including the gentiles.
John 19
11 Jesus answered, “Thou couldest have no power at all against Me, unless it were given thee from above. Therefore he that delivered Me unto thee hath the greater sin.”
why did Judas have the greater sin than pilate.
i know the scriptures. and i know it was foreordained. that doesnt mean you murdered christ. you werent there.
whats this single out the jews. it says what it says and it names names including the gentiles.
John 19
11 Jesus answered, “Thou couldest have no power at all against Me, unless it were given thee from above. Therefore he that delivered Me unto thee hath the greater sin.”
why did Judas have the greater sin than pilate.
P
Not incomplete at all. We were not active participants in the death of Christ. There is a law to address someone that is complicit in the death of another, without being the one pulling the trigger. If a robber is killed by the police, his accomplice can be charged with 1st degree murder. We were not part of the jews plan. Let me ask you this, if you knew that the only way for you to live would be if someone else died, would you ask for that persons death? I wouldn't.
I absolutely appreciate, and am forever indebted, for what Christ did. Me being a beneficiary does not make me an accomplice. It is a clear line of demarcation.
Oh but my friend, there you are wrong. Just read verse 23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain"
They very clearly were accomplices to that plot. Peter said: Ye have taken, and by using wicked hands, have murdered Christ. That is no less than a murder for hire plot. Christ had broken no Roman laws. Pilate was trying to keep the peace with the seditious jews. The payoff for him was peace from the jews. Pilate asserted that Jesus was innocent. "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person".
The instrument of death was the romans, not me. The jews are the murderers.
I absolutely appreciate, and am forever indebted, for what Christ did. Me being a beneficiary does not make me an accomplice. It is a clear line of demarcation.
Oh but my friend, there you are wrong. Just read verse 23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain"
They very clearly were accomplices to that plot. Peter said: Ye have taken, and by using wicked hands, have murdered Christ. That is no less than a murder for hire plot. Christ had broken no Roman laws. Pilate was trying to keep the peace with the seditious jews. The payoff for him was peace from the jews. Pilate asserted that Jesus was innocent. "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person".
The instrument of death was the romans, not me. The jews are the murderers.