Arminius vs. Calvinism - Lazarus

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Red_Tory

Red_Tory

Senior Member
#1
Jan 26, 2010
611
17
18
#1
What implications does the story of the rich man and Lazarus have for the debate between proponents of free will and predestination?

I am referring specifically to the latter part of the chapter, Luke 16:27-31 -

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’


Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”



To me, it seems as though this may potentially come out in favour of free will as opposed to predestination, as the purpose of Moses and the Prophets (i.e. the Bible) in this case is to provide compelling evidence of God's existence and the veracity of His revelation. Apparently it's so watertight that even someone rising from the dead doesn't compare.

Looking for a second opinion...
 
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A

AnandaHya

Guest
#2
#2
haven't studied it in depth but my understanding is that God gave us free will and people CHOSE to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior or not.

God is loving and will try and get people to accept and allow the seed of salvation to grown in their hearts but sometimes people value the world, themselves or are rootless. God gives everyone the chance to be saved but not everyone will chose God.

I believe God choses everyone when they are formed in their mothers womb all of humanity was made for a purpose and special in the eyes of God.

The sower of the seed and the harvest analogy applies to thoughts and actions of people. In the end people will be judged by the fruits they bear in their lives. Was their life full of love and caring for others (good fruit) or was it full of thorns and hatreds?

God will judge people by their fruits. He gives to all who ask His Holy Spirit to guide and comfort. However if they chose to worship their flesh and the world versus obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit it is their choice.

they not only have Moses and the Prophets but now they have Jesus who rose from the dead and the Holy Spirit to convict them to confess and repent of their sins and accept forgiveness and salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

it is choice. God decided to save all mankind by sending Jesus to die for us. This decision can be seen in scripture:

Genesis 3 (speaking to the serpent, and Eve's SEED is Jesus)
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

now the question is did Satan create any humans? what are the seeds of serpents? demons or other serpents would be what comes to my mind.

So why do people say it is other HUMANS?
 
Red_Tory

Red_Tory

Senior Member
#3
Jan 26, 2010
611
17
18
#3
AnandaHya said:
haven't studied it in depth but my understanding is that God gave us free will and people CHOSE to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior or not.

God is loving and will try and get people to accept and allow the seed of salvation to grown in their hearts but sometimes people value the world, themselves or are rootless. God gives everyone the chance to be saved but not everyone will chose God.

I believe God choses everyone when they are formed in their mothers womb all of humanity was made for a purpose and special in the eyes of God.

The sower of the seed and the harvest analogy applies to thoughts and actions of people. In the end people will be judged by the fruits they bear in their lives. Was their life full of love and caring for others (good fruit) or was it full of thorns and hatreds?

God will judge people by their fruits. He gives to all who ask His Holy Spirit to guide and comfort. However if they chose to worship their flesh and the world versus obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit it is their choice.

they not only have Moses and the Prophets but now they have Jesus who rose from the dead and the Holy Spirit to convict them to confess and repent of their sins and accept forgiveness and salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

it is choice. God decided to save all mankind by sending Jesus to die for us. This decision can be seen in scripture:

Genesis 3 (speaking to the serpent, and Eve's SEED is Jesus)
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

now the question is did Satan create any humans? what are the seeds of serpents? demons or other serpents would be what comes to my mind.

So why do people say it is other HUMANS?
Click to expand...


Aye, so you'd fall under Arminius?



Thing is, on many other Christian forums I've been a member of, there have been long and harsh debates between the two dominant schools of Protestant thought, Calvinism vs. Arminianism (this website oddly seems to lack that?). Traditional Calvinism rejects the notion of "free will". Under the Calvinist school of thought, people are predestined to be saved ("the elect") or damned to Hell.

I'm just wondering what people think about this verse having an impact on the never-ending debates...
 
Z

Zilla64007

Banned
#4
Jan 14, 2010
1,010
5
0
#4
as far as i recall, Luke 16:19-31 was talking about a parable... and not a real life event.

if people are predestined to heaven, then that would also mean that other would also be predestined to hell, which would also make God the author of sin... even John Calvin himself that God predestined people to hell for "His own pleasure"...

if this were the case, God would not of given Cain a choice in Genesis 4:7...
"If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it"

if the Calvinistic God is indeed the God of the Bible, then God is doing nothing but playing with Cain.
the scriptures plainly state that man has free will... people are not destined to Heaven of hell

1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
 
M

Meridoc

Guest
#5
#5
If we are predestined as some would tell you, then we have no free will and are but mindless robots whose worship and love of God has no value.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the WORLD that He His only begotten Son", not some of the world, or the elect of the world, but the whole world.

Romans 14:14-16 "I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. " How can you destroy someone who is predestined, for whom Christ died, unless we have free will.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#6
#6
Red_Tory said:
Aye, so you'd fall under Arminius?



Thing is, on many other Christian forums I've been a member of, there have been long and harsh debates between the two dominant schools of Protestant thought, Calvinism vs. Arminianism (this website oddly seems to lack that?). Traditional Calvinism rejects the notion of "free will". Under the Calvinist school of thought, people are predestined to be saved ("the elect") or damned to Hell.

I'm just wondering what people think about this verse having an impact on the never-ending debates...
Click to expand...
don't know haven't studied either belief system. I label myself as a child of God and try and live up to the title every day. Don't know what the world would call my beliefs they tend not to fit fully into any denomination, philosophy, etc. I base it off of my life experiences and my understanding of the Bible.

Neither of which seem to fall in line with any man-made doctrine or system of belief though I agree with parts of most theology. there is always a point that make me question if their stance is totally Biblical.
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#7
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#7
AnandaHya said:
don't know haven't studied either belief system. I label myself as a child of God and try and live up to the title every day. Don't know what the world would call my beliefs they tend not to fit fully into any denomination, philosophy, etc. I base it off of my life experiences and my understanding of the Bible.

Neither of which seem to fall in line with any man-made doctrine or system of belief though I agree with parts of most theology. there is always a point that make me question if their stance is totally Biblical.
Click to expand...
Aye, Ananda. Do not be forced into one or the another of these camps. There is a third camp called Pelagianism, which you definitely want to avoid.

The problem Calvinists have with free will is that they have the mistaken notion that we are limiting God by allowing free will. This is not true at all. If your 14 year old son decides he wants to play high school football, you as his parent have to sign off on it. If you do, you know that he can get hurt. But, because you love him, you want him to have that free will to play. Later, if he suffers an injury, leaving him paralyzed from the neck down, you real realize that you could have prevented it, by refusing to let him play. You had the power all along to refuse to let him play, but you did not exercise that power, because you wanted him to be able to choose. Now, it can be argued that God would know that the accident would occur, whereas you don't. This is true. But when you first allow your children to ride a bike, you know that at some point they will have a small accident, resulting in scraped knees and elbows. But this you will allow, because you know that they will heal quickly, and the suffering is small, compared with the freedom the child has to make choices, and not be forced by you to do everything. The paralyzed football player will also heal rather quickly, (a lifetime), compared with eternity in heaven. It is all perspective. God has a perspective which we have difficulty realizing.

God always has the power to force us to act in certain ways. But God wants us to have the choice to love Him. This is not limiting God. He chooses not to act, so that we can have the free will to choose for ourselves. God does act to insure that His final plans and goals are accomplished. Jesus was predestined to die on the cross for our sins, for example. But God leaves us room to make decisions for ourselves. If this were not so, we would not be responsible for our sins. You know the old saying, the devil made me do it! For the Calvinists, we can say, God made me do it! Also, Calvinist limit the power of the atonement. By saying that Christ only died for a limited number of "chosen" people, Christ's great act of love is limited and not available to all.

Calvinists come up with elaborate schemes to show that we are predestined to act in certain ways, while at the same time being responsible for our actions. This defies logical reasoning, and shows a belief system built around a preconceived idea, rather than reality.

In life we own nothing. Everything we have belongs to God, who created us. Except for one thing. We have the choice to accept or deny Christ's atoning sacrifice, and to love Him. That is the only thing that we own, for God has given it to us. We own the choice to accept or deny God. To say anything else denies any culpability on our part for sin. It also leaves us with no answers to atheists who ask, Why does God allow sin and suffering in the world? There is no answer to this question for Calvinists.

By the way. A Calvinist preacher once fell down the steps. He got up, brushed himself off, and declared, "Whew, I'm glad that's over with!"
 
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superdave5221

superdave5221

Senior Member
#8
Jul 28, 2009
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#8
For anyone who is interested, I will be glad to explain how my beliefs differ from Armenianism.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#9
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#9
Red_Tory said:
What implications does the story of the rich man and Lazarus have for the debate between proponents of free will and predestination?

I am referring specifically to the latter part of the chapter, Luke 16:27-31 -

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’


Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”



To me, it seems as though this may potentially come out in favour of free will as opposed to predestination, as the purpose of Moses and the Prophets (i.e. the Bible) in this case is to provide compelling evidence of God's existence and the veracity of His revelation. Apparently it's so watertight that even someone rising from the dead doesn't compare.

Looking for a second opinion...
Click to expand...
heya.
not answering the free will question here, just pointing out that this parable isn't about that, neither is it about the place of the dead (as we so often make it to be): its is about the Israelites who had been given all the blessings of God yet had despised the gentiles so harshly, in spite of God's commandments to be kind to the strangers in their midst.

The "mystery" (Ephesians) that the gentiles would be joint-heirs, and that this was purposed from the beginning makes Israel's hardness of heart toward her neighbours even more tragic (good Samaritan)

Lazarus is the same name as Eleazar (the Old Covenant Aaronic priest).

Jesus' friend Lazarus being raised from the dead to new life also hints at the "new priesthood".
 
Red_Tory

Red_Tory

Senior Member
#11
Jan 26, 2010
611
17
18
#11
zone said:
heya.
not answering the free will question here, just pointing out that this parable isn't about that, neither is it about the place of the dead (as we so often make it to be): its is about the Israelites who had been given all the blessings of God yet had despised the gentiles so harshly, in spite of God's commandments to be kind to the strangers in their midst.

The "mystery" (Ephesians) that the gentiles would be joint-heirs, and that this was purposed from the beginning makes Israel's hardness of heart toward her neighbours even more tragic (good Samaritan)

Lazarus is the same name as Eleazar (the Old Covenant Aaronic priest).

Jesus' friend Lazarus being raised from the dead to new life also hints at the "new priesthood".
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know the parable isn't about free will at all, but I think the last line is still relevant to a debate that may not have existed at the time...
 
DinoDillinger

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
#12
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#12
Red_Tory said:
Yeah, I know the parable isn't about free will at all, but I think the last line is still relevant to a debate that may not have existed at the time...
Click to expand...
A calvinist might say the parable lends evidence to total depravity. Man's absolute inability or desire to repent, turn to God, love God, etc.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#13
#13
superdave5221 said:


By the way. A Calvinist preacher once fell down the steps. He got up, brushed himself off, and declared, "Whew, I'm glad that's over with!"
Click to expand...


lol
last minute jab there. it reminds me of all the "blond" jokes people like to kid around with :)

 
N

Necto

Guest
#14
#14
A I'm here from the sky fell. Explain what it means to Calvinism, and that means Arminism? But please simpler, in a nutshell. OK ? Necto.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#15
#15
In a nutshell.

Calvanism teaches Christ died for only the elect. He did not die for those who did not 'chose" to make it to heaven. Freewill is removed. Your going to be saved if your elect. You will not be saved if you are not. And there is nothing you can do about it. Also. Everything you do you do by Gods direction. Not by your own free will. They also teach eternal security.

Arminian taught Christ died for all. But arminians also believed the gospel is a works based gospel. because you can lose your salvation.

Both have serious flaws.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#16
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#16
eternally-gratefull said:
In a nutshell.

Calvanism teaches Christ died for only the elect. He did not die for those who did not 'chose" to make it to heaven. Freewill is removed. Your going to be saved if your elect. You will not be saved if you are not. And there is nothing you can do about it. Also. Everything you do you do by Gods direction. Not by your own free will. They also teach eternal security.

Arminian taught Christ died for all. But arminians also believed the gospel is a works based gospel. because you can lose your salvation.

Both have serious flaws.
Click to expand...
correction: calvinists do not believe anyone chooses to make it to heaven...including themselves.
they believe God chooses.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#17
#17
zone said:
correction: calvinists do not believe anyone chooses to make it to heaven...including themselves.
they believe God chooses.
Click to expand...
Actually correction. It should read

"He did not die for who HE did not chose to make it to heaven. I forgot one word.. lol
 
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