Ask a "Messianic/Hebrew Rooter" (AMA)

Redeemed2015 · Oct 9, 2016

You are incorrect. I am not here to convert. You are misrepresenting me. I am here to answer questions in a civil manner. I can't "convert" anyone. I am here to discuss and answer questions about misunderstanding of the HRM and Messianic Judaism. It is clear you disagree, that is fine. However it seems you are not even open to discussion.

However I have a question, in what way have I misstated/misrepresented scripture either noncontextualy or in any other form? Quick answer, I haven't.

LaurenTM said:

posthuman · Oct 9, 2016

Redeemed2015 said:

and where is the injunction for gentile believers ((or any believers for that matter)) to go to the synagogue every week and "learn" ?

the only activity i see believers in the scripture undertaking in synagogues is evangelism.

if anyone wants to become a Jew, they can go to the synagogue. there have already been people teaching the Mosaic law in all these cities for centuries. it's not as if people can't find this out if they desire to do so. that's what this passage is saying.
if it were to be commanded of the gentiles, it would have been commanded of the gentiles. it would be taught in all the epistles. but it is not. nowhere.
what is taught is the Law of Christ -- not the same as the Torah. "the Law of God" -- not the same as the Torah. read 1 Corinthians 9:20-21 if you think otherwise, and may God remove the veil from your heart!

To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

only in Christ is the veil removed.

LaurenTM · Oct 9, 2016

Redeemed2015 said:

who told you we wanted to know?

did someone say come and let us ask you questions?

after perusing your site, and seeing the disregard you have for Christians, I would be very hard pressed to believe you

anyway, it's late where I am and there are plenty of other CHRISTIANS here for you to discuss with

Redeemed2015 · Oct 9, 2016

Who is telling anyone to become a Jew????? I am not of The Tribe of Judah. I am like unto a wild Olive Branch that is taken and grafted into the Cultivated Olive tree. I am seen as part of the Olive Tree, and am under the same instruction as the natural branches of the Olive Tree(Israel).

posthuman said:

and where is the injunction for gentile believers ((or any believers for that matter)) to go to the synagogue every week and "learn" ?

the only activity i see believers in the scripture undertaking in synagogues is evangelism.

if anyone wants to become a Jew, they can go to the synagogue. there have already been people teaching the Mosaic law in all these cities for centuries. it's not as if people can't find this out if they desire to do so. that's what this passage is saying.
if it were to be commanded of the gentiles, it would have been commanded of the gentiles. it would be taught in all the epistles. but it is not. nowhere.
what is taught is the Law of Christ -- not the same as the Torah. "the Law of God" -- not the same as the Torah. read 1 Corinthians 9:20-21 if you think otherwise, and may God remove the veil from your heart!

To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

only in Christ is the veil removed.

posthuman · Oct 9, 2016

Redeemed2015 said:

arguing over words, avoiding the substance.

re-read my post and replace "Jew" with "Torah observant son of Israel" or whatever you feel more comfortable using.
you know exactly what i mean.
don't lie -- that's breaking the Torah, ain't it?

Bladerunner · Oct 9, 2016

Redeemed2015 said:

Hi Redeemed2015:

You said: "Over the past 4 years I have made dramatic changes to my life in order to match scripture and what God has commanded me to do in HIS word. I accept HIS Truth over my own falsehood. As a result I now keep the Levitical Dietary Instructions, keep the Sabbath, and Keep the Feasts,as well as all other Biblical Commandments by which I am obligated to obey. Why? Because God has commanded HIS people to do so."

And Then You Said: No, I have not. I encountered the love of the Father through HIS son the Messiah, Yeshua(Jesus) by realizing my sin against HIM and repenting. I love HIM because HE first loved me.

Yet, it is my understanding of the Bible that once you accept Jesus Christ as your savior and receive the Holy Spirit and keep up your continuing repentance of your sins (unless you are as sin free as Jesus Christ) there is nothing else that is a pre-requisite for getting into heaven.

Now, before I have a lot of people taking pokes at me, let me say this:

If you want to keep the " Levitical Dietary Instructions", "keep the Sabbath","Keep the Feasts", "Immersion Baptism" in your life there is no problem as long as you do not make it a necessity to get to heaven. To me that would calling Jesus Christ a liar.

John 11:26 KJV “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

For when you accept Jesus Christ, you get a part of him (Holy Spirit) to share your mortal body with you.

I think you will find in all cases (if your heart heart and soul has truly accepted Jesus Christ), you will be able to "live in Christ" as well.

Karraster · Oct 9, 2016

I'm going out on a limb here, (because I know this belief is not very welcome on CC for some reason) and stating~ I completely believe that Matthew was written in Hebrew, and translated in Greek as best as they could. I have questions. A lot of questions. Because from what I can tell, the Hebrew (if my sources are right), does prove Yeshuah/Jesus to be the Messiah, thru geneology, where the Greek is a bit off...so, do you know anything about that?

Karraster · Oct 9, 2016

For the record, my understanding is that Peter told his interpretation of his vision, and it wasn't about food. It was about men. It's been proven to my satisfaction that, looking at many translations, "He declared all foods clean" ..sorry, can't remember where that is, well it was added. There is far too many scriptures about distinguishing between clean and unclean for that to not be a big deal to the ancient people, and yet we see nothing but silence from them in that regard. I know from being raised on a farm, if all a sudden I was allowed to eat the unclean animals, I wouldn't want to anyway and would at least have something to say about it.

Angela53510 · Oct 10, 2016

Redeemed2015 said:

Let's see! You became a "scholar" at the tender age of 15, now after 4 years of study, you are a teacher and you somehow independently came across the Hebrew Roots heresy all on your own, according to what you say here. As for your personally made curriculum - that is what I was saying! You don't have a clue the basics of Bible interpretation. I figured you wouldn't know Greek well, Hebrew Roots people think it is not important to read the words of Jesus, especially not in the original Greek.

So what lexicon do you use for Hebrew? Which Hebrew Bible are you using? Or do you just use Blue Letter Bible or some other internet site? The thing about Seminary, is that first, it is a graduate degree. That means you have already learned to write, research and study. An undergrad degree teaches you that. You didn't even have a high school diploma when you started reinventing the wheel. Did you ever graduate from high school? I do hope so.

Seminary gives you the tools to study the Bible - it helps you learn about the Bible in depth, the original languages, and then the skills to lead people. I am also a teacher besides being a pastor, and it took me a long time to become a skilled teacher even after training and watching videos of myself to see my weak areas, and being evaluated by extremely good teachers, and given concrete ways to communicate more effectively . So what is your background in teaching, of any sort?

This is not just about your youth, although that is a factor. Your claim to maturity after one year of studying the Bible, on your own, is laughable! Of course, your conclusions also contribute to my personal scorn for your Hebrew Roots nonsense.

But this is the outcome of not getting training from those who have been studying the Bible and serving God in ministry for 30 or 40 years. I heard my preaching pastor preach this morning, and it was the best sermon I have ever heard, not just in terms of his excellent handling of the Scriptures, but in finding a way to cement what he was saying in my heart! And that is that the glory of God and Christ in us is the point of us being members of the Kingdom of God. This pastor/professor/discipler has a Ph.D, served as a missionary overseas for 10 years, started a Bible college for local people to train and learn to carry the gospel to their language to their own people. To say nothing of being an awesome and highly ethical and honest professor! And a mentor for me!

As I said in my last post, you have never studied the very important subjects which are necessary to be able to be a scholar, which you claim with such false humility that you are just reporting that OTHERS have said. Well, maybe, but probably not! If you really are 19, or anything else!

In response, I also asked God to show me what the Scriptures meant. I prayed for him to give me a knowledge and understanding of the heart of God. And the answer to that prayer - God called me to Seminary, where he taught me amazing things, and mostly to walk with God, and follow him, as I study to be a worker approved. (Still studying and hope to be for the rest of my life!)

So don't put people down who go to seminary when God calls them. Of course, there are some very bad seminaries out there, with people who do not believe the Bible, or only teach denominational theology. My seminary had students from 10 denominations and no denomination when I went there. The reputation of the school, was that you truly could learn to walk with God and also learn to understand the Bible, as well as go into ministry with the tools to lead people as disciples.

But I guess you, a lone wolf who hears from a different God than the one that I am all my fellow students and graduates heard from; to say nothing of all the people that haven't been to seminary, but have studied the Bible on their own and come to similar conclusions as me; somehow got a heretical insight from God which contradicts the New Testament, which you admit you don't know as much about.

So yes, you are not called from God. You are not mature, but in fact are a young man who has been terribly led astray. (I'm thinking in your study of HRM websites!) I pray God will really show you the truth about HRM and you will understand that you cannot save yourself by keeping the Levitical Laws, just as the Jews could not either. My plea is to read the New Testament over and over! And find all the verses like Acts 15, or all of Hebrews which show us that while God saved the Jews by their faith in the Old Testament (Hebrews 11) we no longer need to keep the Levitical laws because we are still saved by faith today! Not by keeping Jewish rites and rituals!

Angela53510 · Oct 10, 2016

Karraster said:

I know that as usual, you are clueless! Matthew was not written in Hebrew, although it was written by a Jew and for Jewish readers to bridge the gap between Malachi and the Old Covenant, and Jesus and the New Testament. It does have Hebraisms, like all the books written by Jewish writers. Meaning they often took the grammar and words, and put it in Greek, in forms that were not acceptable in Greek writing. Which lends even more credence to the fact that the entire New Testament was written in Greek, because they wrote in Greek to the best of their ability, but their Semitic origin comes through.

We won't even get into the fact that there are NO extant copies of any books of the New Testament in Hebrew, but over 6000 manuscripts in Greek. As for the Old Testament there are Hebrew copies, of course, But the Old Testament was translated into Greek around 300 BC, because after Alexander the Great hellenized the world, the Jews mostly lost their Hebrew. So there are many Greek OT manuscripts!

In fact, Jesus and all those recording the quotes of the Old Testament combine both the Hebrew and Greek Old Testaments. The boys learned Hebrew in school, and memorized in both Greek and Hebrew. But since the languages they spoke were Aramaic and Greek, and NOT Hebrew, it would have been impossible for them to have written in Hebrew. Especially since having a 'common" or Koine language throughout the known world was one of the conditions that occurred for the "fulfillment" of time, and the incarnation of Jesus Christ, so that the gospel was spread by fisherman and scholars like wild fire, because they spoke the same language. Which was Greek, not Hebrew (yes, I read Hebrew, too!)

Laish · Oct 10, 2016

Karraster said:

For the record, my understanding is that Peter told his interpretation of his vision, and it wasn't about food. It was about men. It's been proven to my satisfaction that, looking at many translations, "He declared all foods clean" ..sorry, can't remember where that is, well it was added. There is far too many scriptures about distinguishing between clean and unclean for that to not be a big deal to the ancient people, and yet we see nothing but silence from them in that regard. I know from being raised on a farm, if all a sudden I was allowed to eat the unclean animals, I wouldn't want to anyway and would at least have something to say about it.

The account of Peter's vision is in acts 10
I hope that helps
Blessings
Bill

Connock · Oct 10, 2016

Redeemed2015 said:

R15, is the above in response to my question (post #14), or someone else's? (I can't really tell) I was specifically referencing Mosaic Law, not all of HIS commandments, but rather specifically the Law of Moses.

Forgive me if you simply haven't gotten around to this question. I'll repeat it so you don't have to scroll:

Q. historically speaking, at what point in time did followers of Jesus first fall under Mosaic Law?

Connock · Oct 10, 2016

LaurenTM said:

why the problems with good faith? LOL! I am starting to think that good faith is in the eye of the beholder and that on opposing teams

didn't you state this Connock?

Why do you perceive God as VERY picky and call appointed tme Mo'ed'im?

are you also a Jewish Roots follower?

I am curious to know, because it seems you guys are tiptoeing all over CHRISTIAN forums these days and telling us we are pagans

so, are you one also?

That was me. Indeed I did write that.

Karraster · Oct 10, 2016

Angela53510 said:

I know that as usual, you are clueless! Matthew was not written in Hebrew, although it was written by a Jew and for Jewish readers to bridge the gap between Malachi and the Old Covenant, and Jesus and the New Testament. It does have Hebraisms, like all the books written by Jewish writers. Meaning they often took the grammar and words, and put it in Greek, in forms that were not acceptable in Greek writing. Which lends even more credence to the fact that the entire New Testament was written in Greek, because they wrote in Greek to the best of their ability, but their Semitic origin comes through.

We won't even get into the fact that there are NO extant copies of any books of the New Testament in Hebrew, but over 6000 manuscripts in Greek. As for the Old Testament there are Hebrew copies, of course, But the Old Testament was translated into Greek around 300 BC, because after Alexander the Great hellenized the world, the Jews mostly lost their Hebrew. So there are many Greek OT manuscripts!

In fact, Jesus and all those recording the quotes of the Old Testament combine both the Hebrew and Greek Old Testaments. The boys learned Hebrew in school, and memorized in both Greek and Hebrew. But since the languages they spoke were Aramaic and Greek, and NOT Hebrew, it would have been impossible for them to have written in Hebrew. Especially since having a 'common" or Koine language throughout the known world was one of the conditions that occurred for the "fulfillment" of time, and the incarnation of Jesus Christ, so that the gospel was spread by fisherman and scholars like wild fire, because they spoke the same language. Which was Greek, not Hebrew (yes, I read Hebrew, too!)

Clueless? Isn't that a bit harsh? 3 paragraphs you bothered to write to me and still didn't answer my 1 simple question. Does the Greek Matthew contain all the generations of Jesus? Does the KJV? IOW, is there proof therein for His being a decendent of David. Am I wrong to say the Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew corrects this problem?

Zmouth · Oct 10, 2016

LaurenTM said:

O really, so the Holy Spirit tells you that Jesus gave you two new commandments?

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matt 22:36-40

So if it is new then why is written in the OT in Deuteronomy 6:5?
John 14:15
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:28-30

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, (Duet 6:5) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:15-16

pottersclay · Oct 10, 2016

To my understanding of the scriptures I place my self out there for one or all to correct me in my understanding.
I am a new creation in Christ Jesus. A creation that has not been named but is liken to a son of God.
I have died with Christ and have been raised in him. My flesh is declared the old man which passes away.
Therefore the law has done it's task in judging me a sinner, the wages of sin is death, I've died with Christ and have been born again in Christ. Now the law has no effect on me for if it did Christ would have to be crucified again.
You can not be tried twice for the same crimes when found innocent by Christ forgiveness.
Do you see what I'm trying to say here or do I have it wrong?

Connock · Oct 10, 2016

Karraster said:

Can I jump in here, Karraster? Only because its very interesting--both points.

re: Hebrew composition of Matthew -- a relatively new and intriguing theory. There is evidence pro and con, but it will be decades before acceptance, or even consensus is possible. Similarly, there is a movement to date all four gospels before the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. But the weathervane of opinion turns very slowly (maybe for the best) so there will have to be much (interesting) discussion on those points, and perhaps even new discoveries of a valuable manuscript or two. (rumor has it an older copy of Mark has been discovered but not yet published. It was extracted from an Egyptian composite papyrus burial mask, and is supposedly dated well before 70 AD). Of course NONE of this stuff is yet published, so don't believe a word I say about it till it is. And of course ALL of it is EXTREMELY interesting.

Christians should know that Archaeology is very much our friend.

re: Matthew's skipped generations- Yes, there are five. Ahaziah, Athaliah, Joash, Amaziah, and a later king Jehoiakim. Technically Matthew was not giving a "false" account since "father of" can mean "forefather of" but what is intriguing is that he numbers this segment as 14 generations when in fact there are 18 (Athaliah was Ahaziah's mother - a piece of work she was) (actually they all were except Joash -- he was a good king, and Amaziah -- he was OK). No Hebrew would have missed Matthew's omission. Joash ruled for 40 years and was a very beloved king. Omitting him would be like listing all the US Presidents and omitting FDR.

It's amazing how these obvious omissions survived. A Hebrew transcriber (with the books of Kings and Chronicles as ready reference) would have been sorely tempted to "correct" this "mistake". But I think it was not a mistake.

JGIG · Oct 10, 2016

LaurenTM said:

the above post, #26, is found VERBATIM

RIGHT HERE

so while the op would seem to want to impress us with all his many many years of study and deep prayer, he just copy/pasted his post

irregardless, the title of the article is Should Gentiles Follow Torah

through manipulation and really really bad exegesis, these folks seek to tell us that Paul did not mean what we think he means

and oh goody...he is here to straighten us all out

......and there you have it, straight from the Torah observant Messianic Judaism

Gentiles cannot and do not become Jewish

BUSTED.

One could say that Redeemed2015 was bearing false witness . . . plagiarizing if nothing else . . .

-JGIG

JGIG · Oct 10, 2016

Angela53510 said:

So you are an expert in Hebrew, and read the Old Testament in Hebrew, and you have a thorough knowledge of Greek, besides grammar and syntax, memorized all the NT Greek words down to 10 frequencies in the New Testament, plus classes and studies in hermeneutics and exegetics?

Because that is what you need to be a scholar! And of course, a thorough understanding of the history of the ancient near east, and New Testament times. Context is vital!

Or did you, as a naive 15 year old somehow decide that you could somehow figure things out by yourself, reinvent the Biblical wheel, and that God would show you all kinds of Biblical Truth that God never showed anyone else!

Because if you think you know more than people who have spent their entire lives studying on a level you could not even imagine, you are delusional!

When I first started taking Hebrew, I attended a Hebrew Roots church. The "rabbi" said they were Messianic Jews, but none of them were Jews, and the pastor got weirder and weirder in what he admitted to believing! My Hebrew professor had us visit a Hebrew synagogue, but Hebrew Roots was not allowed, because they were not Jews. I actually learned about the Jewish culture, and saw their rites and rituals. Those are the rituals which take the place of a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ.

So to repeat what a previous poster asked, "Do you know Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour? Or Hamashiach or whatever you call him?"

As for you teaching us, perhaps you need to do a search about Hebrew Roots threads in this forum, read them, and find out that the majority of us have nothing to learn from you! We rightly rejected HR a long time ago!

Aw, cut the kid some slack. He was brought up in a Church of God - a kissin' cousin to the HRM. His paradigm was stacked against him to begin with.

Be gentle and faithful to share the simple truths of the Gospel and let God do the rest

.

-JGIG

JGIG · Oct 10, 2016

Redeemed2015 said:

Nice to meet you 'Ellen', is it?

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