At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[mailmandan]

We are commanded to repent apart from trusting in Him for redemption.

We must first repent (change our mind) before we can trust in Him for redemption. Repentance precedes trusting in Him for redemption. Repent-'-change our mind--new direction of this change of mind--trust in Him for redemption. Two sides to the same coin. (Acts 20:21)

This mental conviction is a work. It is not baked into the belief of Jesus as Savior.

Believing in Jesus for redemption is not a work that merits salvation. Through believing we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption). Paul makes a distinction between faith and works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Faith is not the sole agency of redemption.

So, you believe that we are saved by grace through faith and works? (in contradiction to Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9).

A dead faith is not as you have described a "empty profession of faith".

Sure it is. James said says/claims (key word) to have faith in )James 2:14).

A dead faith is a faith without deeds.

It's without deeds because it's not alive in Christ. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Apart from Christ we can do nothing. (John 15:5) Something that is dead cannot produce anything. It takes a good tree to bear good fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

Rahab had sincere faith in the God of the Hebrews but without her deeds her faith was dead.

Sure she had sincere faith which was evidenced by her works but we must not put the cart before the horse.

Her faith was not a "empty profession of faith", it was real, it was sincere but it was not enough to save her.

Sure it was real and her faith was not an empty profession. It was evidenced by her works. Rahab showed her faith by her works (James 2:18) just as all genuine believers do.

In Romans 4:2-3, we read - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. Be sure to read Romans 4:2-6.

Now, do you believe that Abraham was saved when he believed God in Genesis 15:6 or not until many years later by works, after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22? What do you believe "justified by works" in James 2:21 means? Accounted as righteous/saved by works or shown to be righteous by works?

 

[Inquisitor]

Slowly and carefully.

Well Cameron, you read the verse slowly and carefully.

So if a Christian sows to the flesh will that Christian reap a harvest of flesh?

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

Is living by the instinct of the fleshly mind actually mocking God?

Is that Christian deceived?

 

[Jimbone]

Most Christians believe there is a cooperation between God and believers. They may not agree on the extent or the contributions of each party, but they believe there is a spiritual bond that was designed to be improved in relationship. The controversy is usually over what level, if any, a non-believer can contribute to a relationship with God.

I think more specifically about the actually act of being saved, what role we play, and most importantly who gets the glory and credit for it. My position is God gets it all. Yes, I'm alive and make decisions, no I don't believe we are puppets being controlled. I believe God gives us life, God draws us in, God transforms us by His grace no matter how or who He is saving. So, the guy that hears the gospel, responds in faith, hit's his knees in repentance and is born again in truth right there, 100% all God. The guy that grows up in a land and in a culture that will kill you for being a Christian, that man has dreams and is drawn into salvation in truth, 100% God. The junkie that's been shooting heroin for 40 years in jail for the 20th time, that woman who is born again on the floor of a cell fighting withdraw, Yep, 100% God.

I'm one of those "All glory to God" fellows, and to be honest if hearing this offends anyone then I'd just take a closer look at my relationship with God in truth. That said I do understand why and how this view it held, I too believed the same way until He led me to something that fit His word so much more completely.

 

[Cameron143]

Well Cameron, you read the verse slowly and carefully.

So if a Christian sows to the flesh will that Christian reap a harvest of flesh?

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

Is living by the instinct of the fleshly mind actually mocking God?

Is that Christian deceived?

Sure. But they are still Christians.

 

[Lamar]

We must first repent (change our mind) before we can trust in Him for redemption. Repentance precedes trusting in Him for redemption. Repent-'-change our mind--new direction of this change of mind--trust in Him for redemption. Two sides to the same coin. (Acts 20:21)

Believing in Jesus for redemption is not a work that merits salvation. Through believing we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption). Paul makes a distinction between faith and works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

So, you believe that we are saved by grace through faith and works? (in contradiction to Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9).

Sure it is. James said says/claims (key word) to have faith in )James 2:14).

It's without deeds because it's not alive in Christ. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Apart from Christ we can do nothing. (John 15:5) Something that is dead cannot produce anything. It takes a good tree to bear good fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

Sure she had sincere faith which was evidenced by her works but we must not put the cart before the horse.

Sure it was real and her faith was not an empty profession. It was evidenced by her works. Rahab showed her faith by her works (James 2:18) just as all genuine believers do.

In Romans 4:2-3, we read - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. Be sure to read Romans 4:2-6.

Now, do you believe that Abraham was saved when he believed God in Genesis 15:6 or not until many years later by works, after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22? What do you believe "justified by works" in James 2:21 means? Accounted as righteous/saved by works or shown to be righteous by works?

Real faith does not need to be expressed by deeds to be sincere but sincerity is not what saves.

It is the fulfillment of the commands of a gracious God by the faithful that secures redemption.

Abraham was not justified by works, he was justified by his obedience. Without obedience he would have never even been mentioned.

He would have been like King Saul, a sincere believer but not obedient.

 

[Inquisitor]

Sure. But they are still Christians.

You did not answer these two simple questions.

Is living by the instinct of the fleshly mind actually mocking God?

Is that Christian deceived?

 

[Cameron143]

Real faith does not need to be expressed by deeds to be sincere but sincerity is not what saves.

It is the fulfillment of the commands of a gracious God by the faithful that secures redemption.

Abraham was not justified by works, he was justified by his obedience. Without obedience he would have never even been mentioned.

He would have been like King Saul, a sincere believer but not obedient.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness...Genesis 15:6.
Abraham often did not obey God.

 

[Cameron143]

You did not answer these two simple questions.

Is living by the instinct of the fleshly mind actually mocking God?

Is that Christian deceived?

I don't understand the first question. Living in the flesh doesn't necessitate deception. People deliberately disobey God all the time.
Christians can be deceived, but generally I am of the opinion they are simply rebellious.

 

[Inquisitor]

Are you implying that Hebrews 12:14 teaches that if we are not "holy enough" IN ADDITION to having placed our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:8) then we will not see God? That would imply works righteousness. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be sanctified is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification.

Those who are sanctified have been "set apart" or "made holy" in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Those who are justified are also sanctified and will be glorified. (Romans 8:30)

In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God. (NASB) The ESV reads - fails to obtain the grace of God. That puts things into perspective here.

Do you mind answering two simple questions?

Do you abide by Sola Scripture or does your interpretation include tradition?

Do you submit to the Lord's commandment?

! Corinthians 14:37-38
37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you
are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

 

[Inquisitor]

I don't understand the first question. Living in the flesh doesn't necessitate deception. People deliberately disobey God all the time.
Christians can be deceived, but generally I am of the opinion they are simply rebellious.

What you seem to be saying is that Christians can be in open rebellion against God?

Is there any difference between living in the flesh or living in the Holy Spirit?

 

[mailmandan]

Do you mind answering two simple questions?

Do you abide by Sola Scripture or does your interpretation include tradition?

Sola Scripture.

Do you submit to the Lord's commandment?

! Corinthians 14:37-38
37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you
are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

Are you asking me if I think I'm a prophet?

 

[Cameron143]

What you seem to be saying is that Christians can be in open rebellion against God?

Is there any difference between living in the flesh or living in the Holy Spirit?

I'm not saying that Christians live predominantly in sin. I'm saying Christians sin all the time. And not simply because they are deceived, but defiantly. Do you love God with your whole heart continuously? How often aren't you doing so? Do you continuously love your neighbor and wife as Christ loves His church?
People are far more sinful than they consider themselves to be.

 

[Inquisitor]

Sola Scripture.

Are you asking me if I think I'm a prophet?

No, I am not asking you if you are a prophet.

What I am asking you is written below.

Is what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 14 the Lord's Commandment?

Do you accept the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit are as powerful, now as they have always been?

 

[Inquisitor]

I'm not saying that Christians live predominantly in sin. I'm saying Christians sin all the time. And not simply because they are deceived, but defiantly. Do you love God with your whole heart continuously? How often aren't you doing so? Do you continuously love your neighbor and wife as Christ loves His church?
People are far more sinful than they consider themselves to be.

Do you want an honest response to your question below?

Do you continuously love your neighbor and wife as Christ loves His church?

I never had a wife so I am not required to love my wife.

I agree with you that nearly the entire Christian world is extremely selfish.

There is an immense absence of divine love in this world. Even though Christ commanded us to
love others there seems to be no trace of it.

 

[Cameron143]

Do you want an honest response to your question below?

Do you continuously love your neighbor and wife as Christ loves His church?

I never had a wife so I am not required to love my wife.

I agree with you that nearly the entire Christian world is extremely selfish.

There is an immense absence of divine love in this world. Even though Christ commanded us to
love others there seems to be no trace of it.

An honest response would be exceedingly long for all of us. We don't judge ourselves as we ought. Things we disallow for others we all too frequently do.