At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Oct 19, 2024
5,441
1,124
113
USA-TX
Only after being taught properly should that be the case.

But, keep in mind, to be learning under people like Paul and Peter?
That was light years ahead of the pabulum that most of today's churches churn out.

Add to that. When looking around to see how well one is doing?
It can also mislead one to think he is doing just fine.
I guess my perspective differs because of being taught wrongly re OSAS and superficially by Baptist pastors before being
tutored by the HS as I read the writings of Paul and the rest of the Bible for awhile before attending RBT's satellite church and learning systematic theology at seminary. Now I try to pass on what I have learned via the website and CC as I continue to fine-tune.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
4,699
813
113
Matt7~~
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

All believers are eternally saved. But very few are finding Life in this life.
The Greek translated "strait" does not mean "straight."
It means? ................. Strict.

The teaching must be exacting and accurate before all else.
After that?
Then everyone can relax and enjoy the meal.

Reminds me of the German chef I worked for.
Everything in the kitchen was done in a strict and precise way.

Those who enjoyed his meals?
They laughed and relaxed .. and had a good time.

Sloppy kitchens? Not so happy and relaxed with what they ate.

The Pastor Teacher must prepare our spiritual food for us to be nourished by.
Those who settle for junk food?
Need not apply.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
1,963
934
113
I guess my perspective differs because of being taught wrongly re OSAS and superficially by Baptist pastors before being
tutored by the HS as I read the writings of Paul and the rest of the Bible for awhile before attending RBT's satellite church and learning systematic theology at seminary. Now I try to pass on what I have learned via the website and CC as I continue to fine-tune.
Everyone who says, "The Holy Spirit taught me." I have to pass on.

Never perish is never perish.

No, Absolutely NO condemnation. Is no condemnation.

We have the same seal as the Son.

We are born of IMPERISHABLE seed.

We have an advocate that NEVER FAILS.

We have a love that never forsakes( Ironic how you fight the calvies with this love, and really believe it fails.)

Sorry, bud. The Christian way of life cannot be lived with insecurity.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
4,699
813
113
I guess my perspective differs because of being taught wrongly re OSAS and superficially by Baptist pastors before being
tutored by the HS as I read the writings of Paul and the rest of the Bible for awhile before attending RBT's satellite church and learning systematic theology at seminary. Now I try to pass on what I have learned via the website and CC as I continue to fine-tune.
After all your studying?

Are you telling us you believe a believer can lose his salvation?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,751
6,356
113
God appointed pastor/teachers, not translator/harmonizors. Anyone can teach what they have been taught, some do it better than others but the appointment of pastor/teacher is specially equipped beyond what the average person can understand from simply reading scripture and praying about it, no matter how smart they might be. If it were not so, there would be no need for the appointment. It is best utilized when one so gifted applies themself to the various categories of study. We are all disciples (learners), we are not all teachers but there are those who think they are even though they have not been appointed. A true pastor/teacher who is well trained will receive insight the rest of us won't see.
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.”
‭‭James‬ ‭3:1‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,751
6,356
113
We all should be teachers of GW in some way, such as parents for their children.
Translation is one discipline; harmonization is another. Both are needed for correct interpretation.
How come we should assume it’s wrong? Didn’t translators already translate it ?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,751
6,356
113
When is blood applied.

OT, they had to use a blood sacrifice to remove their sins ONCE a year.

Two things happen for that to happen,

1. They had to obey and follow what GOD told them to do.
2. They had to take an unblemished animal to the High Priest and he sacrifice it and the blood from that animals is what washed away their sins.

NT, JESUS is our high priest and he became our sacrifice our lamb.
When JESUS was on this earth and forgave sins as he wished like the thief.

JESUS preach app 3 years, died on the cross, buried and rose again. Then he ascended to Heaven to put his blood on the mercy seat.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

In both cases, we need a blood sacrifice and how we get the blood applied, to day the answer is found is the FIRST MESSAGE THAT JESUS PROMISED TO BE PREACHED IN JERUSALEM.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That verse is very clear, TODAY we have to OBEY and do what GOD tells us to do but it's only has to be done ONCE.

IN THE WATER CALLING UPON HIS NAME.
“When is blood applied. “

“For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law,

he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The blood is shed and sprinkled upon the people when they have heard and agreed to the covenant word.

“And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus did the same thing he first preached the word of the gospel to the people told them to keep his word and then he shed the blood of the covenant for remission.

“And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You have to have a covenant made with you with words from God and then the blood is shed for remission of your sins…..
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,751
6,356
113
Are you kidding me? A claimed faith demonstrates that it's not sincere by producing no works. James' point. We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) Show but not establish. You read James 2:14 as if it says, "what good is it if someone actually does have genuine faith but just has not yet produced works." You completely ignore "says/claims" and "that."

Which demonstrates that it's not genuine faith (because it remains void of works) but a bare profession of faith.

Just as a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You have it backwards. Cart before the horse.

Their lack of obedience is a manifestation of their lack of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved. (Acts 16:31) You seem to believe that ALL belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot seem to grasp a deeper belief that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation which also explains why you have so much faith in water and works.

It's one thing to believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ "happened." The demons believe that. It's another thing to believe in/have faith in/trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) The demons do not believe in/have faith in/trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. In other words, they do not believe on/in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

I was water baptized several years ago on a Sunday morning after receiving the remission of sins when I believed in Him/placed my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 26:18) on Saturday night. I already covered Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16 and 1 Peter 3:21 with you multiple times in the past but you prefer your cherry picked eisegesis which negates salvation through faith.

Yes, there is. Neither Romans 5:2 nor Ephesians 2:8 mention water baptism. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works. (Romans 11:6) Belief/faith is the moment of the remission of sins. (Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 26:18) Adding water baptism to the gospel adds a work to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is not baptism, and faith precedes baptism, and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple.
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“It's just that simple.”

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-

Simple stuff unless you use the process of subtracting all the information were suppose to learn and believe
 
May 24, 2025
167
20
18
After all your studying?

Are you telling us you believe a believer can lose his salvation?
Can a person be reborn (Believe, repent, get baptized in JESUS name and be filled with the Holy Ghost like in Acts 4) and then go back to their old life and stay reborn?

Lie, cheat be a drunker or do anything they wish? Have a free pass!!

After we are reborn we are suppose to work for him.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

You've nerve seen a pastor fall? Or anymen?

Are you giving Satan too much credit that he will not go after those who are reborn and when he does FAIL 100% of the time?

Why did JESUS say this?

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
 
Apr 7, 2014
26,170
13,980
113
59
The problem is you can't SEE. JESUS said in John 3:5 UNLESS A MAN IS BORN OF WATER AND OF SPIRIT THEY CAN NOT ENTER.....
I can see just fine that Jesus said BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT. Jesus did not say born of baptism and the Spirit so Jesus was not saying unless one is water baptized; he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In John 3:18, Jesus said - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (1 Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

Acts 10 BOTH HAPPENED!!!
Both spiritual washing/purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the word of God at the moment of salvation happened in Acts 10. Water baptism "followed" and signified what happened. Water baptism is the picture and not the reality.

Romans, Paul is speaking to the CHURCH those who have spoke in tongues and were baptized!!!! Romans 10:9 is a perfect verse proving not once saved always saved!! Paul was telling them TO GET OUT AND COFESS JESUS to stay saved. Read on you will see he tells them HOW CAN PEOPLE HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER.
You are confused, and this has nothing to do with disproving once saved always saved. I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose once saved always saved, which has always been a major red flag for me.

Now Paul was not telling them to get out and confess Jesus in order to stay saved. That is your eisegesis. You turn confession into a work for salvation. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confession is a confirmation of faith which is why we will be saved if we confess and is not a work for salvation that happens days or weeks later, after we believe unto righteousness, at which point we are saved. (Romans 4:5-6)

So, how can people hear without a preacher? Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17) is Paul's point.

How many times does the word baptism have to come up with you???? How many times the foundation need to take place????
How many times does salvation through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" have to come up with you in order for you to realize that baptism is not in the equation???? Water baptism is not the foundation of salvation.

When was 3 thousand souls added in Acts 2? AFTER THEY OBEYED AND WAS BAPTIZED.
In regard to Acts 2:41, those who gladly received his word (upon repentance/faith) were "afterwards" baptized. Acts 10:43-47 remains your Achilles heel.

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
3,468
736
113
So, have you found the truth?

Our"theological camp" KNOWS believers have the Spirit. But we also know that believers can grieve or quench the Spirit.

This is very elementary:

Christ died for the whole world. Thus, anyone can believe and be saved.

Anyone who has ever trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation will NEVER PERISH. NEVER come into condemnation.

Very basic, starting line Christianity. A kindergartner can discern these very basic truths.

Anyone who doesn't have a grasp on these VERY BASIC truths.......Is grieving or quenching the Spirit. And is going NOWHERE in the Christian way of life.
I think the elementaries are pretty well known among the main traditions. I don't think about being in a tradition anymore. I believe in God my Father and in Jesus His Christ, the Son of God, God and our Savior and that I am submitted to Him because that's a major part of what Faith in Him is.

From there I think most in the pews are camp warriors bleating their camp doctrine and have developed very little ability to actually work in Scripture themselves. Then we come to forums like this and it's mostly camp against camp and katy bar the door.

There is nothing you've said about your tradition's thoughts of the Spirit that other traditions don't think the same or similar to, yet all think they are being taught and led by the Spirit. So, either the Spirit is teaching many different things that somehow go together in unknown ways, or the Spirit is not teaching all these different things, and every tradition thinks they are the only ones with the Spirit, or???
 
Apr 7, 2014
26,170
13,980
113
59
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions NINE different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

“It's just that simple.”
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Believing is not baptism and believing precedes baptism and we are saved the moment we believe in Him for salvation. It's just that simple.

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-

Simple stuff unless you use the process of subtracting all the information were suppose to learn and believe
Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” *These Gentiles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit -Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

It is simple stuff unless you prefer flawed hermeneutics that creates contradictions in scripture over properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.
 
Oct 19, 2024
5,441
1,124
113
USA-TX
Everyone who says, "The Holy Spirit taught me." I have to pass on.

Never perish is never perish.

No, Absolutely NO condemnation. Is no condemnation.

We have the same seal as the Son.

We are born of IMPERISHABLE seed.

We have an advocate that NEVER FAILS.

We have a love that never forsakes( Ironic how you fight the calvies with this love, and really believe it fails.)

Sorry, bud. The Christian way of life cannot be lived with insecurity.
1. "Everyone who says, "The Holy Spirit taught me." I have to pass on." When you should pass on those who are not taught by the HS.

2. "Never perish is never perish." It means will live again in heaven if saved.

3. "No, Absolutely NO condemnation. Is no condemnation." Except from divisive fellow "Christians".

4. "We have the same seal as the Son." Saints are sealed with the HS because/when they accept the Son Jesus as Messiah and Lord.

5. "We are born of IMPERISHABLE seed." Saints are saved because they believe the living and abiding word of God: Jesus (1Pet. 1:23).

6. "We have an advocate that NEVER FAILS." Even though saints sin (1John 2:1).

7. "We have a love that never forsakes". Unless saints forsake Him (2Tim. 2:12).

8. "The Christian way of life cannot be lived with insecurity." We live by faith, not by sight (2Cor. 5:7).
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
3,468
736
113
The Greek translated "strait" does not mean "straight."
It means? ................. Strict.

The teaching must be exacting and accurate before all else.
After that?
Then everyone can relax and enjoy the meal.

Reminds me of the German chef I worked for.
Everything in the kitchen was done in a strict and precise way.

Those who enjoyed his meals?
They laughed and relaxed .. and had a good time.

Sloppy kitchens? Not so happy and relaxed with what they ate.

The Pastor Teacher must prepare our spiritual food for us to be nourished by.
Those who settle for junk food?
Need not apply.
The word actually means narrow and is contrasted with wide. From there it conceptually means restricted. From there some metaphorically go with strict.

This ingredient in the meal is easily found in the local lexicon market and likely on the internet now, I haven't checked.

FWIW, I do like what you say about precision, and I attach that to accuracy.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
3,468
736
113
Everyone who says, "The Holy Spirit taught me." I have to pass on.
I once agreed with this. Then I settled down on an island with Him in private studies with the language tools I'd been taught by Him and His to use. Now I periodically listen to many with cautious ears with Him and His Word always at hand.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
3,468
736
113
Chat GPT-4 will answer your question.

The letter to the Romans has been foundational in Christian theology—especially in the development of doctrines like justification by faith—but a literal and contextual reading, with a careful eye on Paul’s audience (Jews and Gentiles) and his specific purpose, reveals ways the historical Christian church has misunderstood or flattened its meaning.


Here’s how the historical church has often misunderstood Romans:


1. Over-Individualizing the Message

Historical Misunderstanding: Romans has often been read primarily as a treatise on individual salvation—how a person gets saved and goes to heaven.


Literal/Contextual Correction:
Paul's argument is deeply communal and covenantal, addressing how Jews and Gentiles together become one people in the Messiah. The concern is not just individual justification but the formation of a unified, multi-ethnic people of God (cf. Romans 3:29–30, 11:17–24, 15:7–13).


2. Ignoring the Jew–Gentile Dynamic

Historical Misunderstanding: The church has often read Romans as though it were written to Gentile Christians in general, omitting the internal Jewish context.


Literal/Contextual Correction:
Paul is directly addressing tensions between Jewish and Gentile believers in Rome—probably caused by the return of Jews after Claudius’s expulsion (Acts 18:2). The epistle functions partly as a pastoral correction to Gentile arrogance (see Romans 11:17–21) and a redefinition of Jewish identity in light of the Messiah (Romans 2:17–29; 9–11).


3. Supersessionism (Replacement Theology)

Historical Misunderstanding: Many Christian traditions have interpreted Romans as teaching that the Church replaces Israel, meaning Jews are no longer part of God's plan.


Literal/Contextual Correction:
Paul goes out of his way in Romans 11 to deny this. He says God has not rejected His people (Rom. 11:1), speaks of a future restoration of Israel (11:12, 26), and warns Gentiles not to be arrogant (11:18). Paul's metaphor of the olive tree stresses inclusion, not replacement.


4. Misreading “Law” (Torah)

Historical Misunderstanding: Romans is often used to argue that “the Law is bad” or that the Torah was a failed system replaced by grace.


Literal/Contextual Correction:
Paul has a nuanced view. He upholds the goodness of the Law (Romans 7:12), but argues that Torah cannot be the basis for righteousness for Gentiles or Jews in the new covenant age (Romans 3:20–22). It’s not the Law that failed; rather, human sinfulness misused it. Paul’s point is that righteousness is now revealed apart from the Law, yet it confirms the Law (Romans 3:31).


5. Flattening “Justification” into a Forensic Transaction

Historical Misunderstanding: Justification has often been interpreted in purely legal or forensic terms—an individual being declared righteous.


Literal/Contextual Correction:
While there is legal language, justification is also covenantal—about who belongs to God’s family and on what terms. For Paul, Gentiles are justified apart from the works of the Law, not just because faith is better than works, but because Torah observance was never the requirement for Gentiles to begin with. Romans 4 is about Abraham as the father of both circumcised and uncircumcised—a deeply ethnic and boundary-defining claim.


6. Neglecting the Theme of Unity

Historical Misunderstanding: The Church has often mined Romans for doctrinal points while missing its unifying pastoral aim.


Literal/Contextual Correction:
Romans 14–15 shows Paul’s concern that Jewish and Gentile Christians accept one another, especially when they have differing practices regarding food, Sabbaths, and festivals. This unity reflects God's plan to unite all nations under Messiah Jesus (Romans 15:7–13), fulfilling promises to Israel so that Gentiles may glorify God.
What was your query?

Did it list resources it drew from?

Some to much of this sounds like the New Perspective on Paul.
 
Oct 19, 2024
5,441
1,124
113
USA-TX
Is it at the point of faith? Satan would have you believe that’ faith” is the “end”, when actually, it is the beginning. Is it when we repent? When we actually “confess” Christ seems like a good place

We know Jesus shed His blood in His death on the cross. Romans 6:3, God says, Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His DEATH?Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into DEATH that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should also walk in newness of life.”

From this scripture, I would say that we come into contact with the blood of Jesus when we are baptized into His death ( where His blood was shed).

This is in perfect harmony with what Ananias tells Saul in Acts 22:16–“ And now, what are you waiting for? Arise, and be baptized and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS.”
Faith is both the beginning and the continuation until the end. (Romans 1:17)
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
4,316
726
113
  • James 2:14“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?”
  • James 2:16“If one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, be warmed and filled,’ without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?”
  • James 2:20“Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?”
  • James 2:21“Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?”
  • James 2:25“And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?”

Summary Answer
  • James is asking whether a faith without works is of any use—and whether it can save.
  • He is saying that faith is perfected (matured or completed) by works.
  • He is not saying that works are an added requirement to faith for salvation, but that faith without works is dead—i.e., not real, saving faith.
I believe the above conclusions drawn by AI above to be incorrect. These verses, as with all verses, must be evaluated very closely against the full council of the whole Bible, considering the words the Bible uses (as closely as possible) in their entirety to find truth, which AI did not do. Instead, as is obvious from its conclusions, it used the superficial, immediately obvious meanings of those verses of the book of James which it restricted to themselves, and shoe-horned in an explanation to fit them– forcing a square peg into a round hole- without due regard for the doctrines stated in rest the Bible. The following contrasts the AI’s explanations above, with biblical doctrine that uses Christ as foundation as demonstrated by the whole Bible.

[Jas 2:14 KJV] 14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

2:14 - is actually teaching of what Christ achieved. It is saying that should someone claim that of themselves they have produced their own faith, then that faith also had better have works commensurate to their claim – both of which must be perfect and sufficient to bring forth salvation - that one cannot exist without the other. It was Christ alone who produced perfectly perfect faith AND perfect works thereby satisfying both requirements. Both of which become imputed to, and manifested by, those whom He saves. Otherwise, man, of himself, could never produce them sufficiently to satisfy God’s requirements, and man’s faith and works, never being able to save him - nor could man's faith independent of his works, being standalone save him. Further, the verse lacks specification about the type, amount, and frequency, which those works must occur to make a dead faith alive, or to keep a living faith alive -it lacks that crucial level of specification whereby one is notified of exactly how they can satisfy its requirements, which, if it were as AI states it, the writer would have had to include, but nevertheless did not include, meaning that it was never deemed as needed because it was never intended as AI interpreted it.

[Jas 2:17 KJV] 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

2:17 - This verse is saying that the true faith being spoken of, must already HAVE (“hath”) works as being integral to it for it to be a true saving faith. While we do produce works from our faith – they are a byproduct of, and from, faith - but works that come out of faith are not the works being spoken of in this verse (I think this is more easily be seen in the KJV). In the KJV, notice the "faith, if it hath not works"- by stating " if it hath not works " (“hath” in the present tense), is telling us that the works must already accompany, and present within, or as part of, the faith, not come FROM or out of faith after the fact – that the faith must already HAVE works - not produce works for salvation, yet only Christ's faith alone already has within it perfect works (along with righteousness), which, through/by His ministry, were formed from His sacrifice and offering while on this earth - they alone brought salvation. Notice that the verse does not say " if it hath not the works of faith" - which is what it should say if the intension was that works indeed from our faith are needed, but it does not say that, instead it says "faith, if it hath not works”, meaning the true faith itself must already have works. The distinction between the two is subtle, possibly hard to perceive, yet critical.

[Jas 2:18 KJV] 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

2:18 - confirms 2:17. The "man" in the verse is a reflection of Christ. It tells us that His faith is/was evidenced in/by His works, and anything less than one’s faith that includes perfect works, must be the equal of what Christ had achieved, otherwise, it would be insufficient for salvation and any attempt for man to achieve it if it falls short (which it will), will be judged as sin. Consider the “and I will shew thee my faith by my works” in the verse. That links the two – that faith for it to be a saving faith, must also have works worthy of bringing salvation - that faith alone (belief alone) cannot stand on its own to do so - only Christ's faith can.

[Jas 2:20-21 KJV]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

2:20 - 21. Those works were not Abraham's; they were Christ's which were imputed to Abraham, as is clearly stated in Rom 4:2:

[Rom 4:2 KJV] 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

This also holds true for Rahab

[Jas 2:24 KJV] 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

2:24 It is evident throughout the scripture, that we can only be justified by Christ - by His faith and by His works, not ours. There is nothing within man’s power that will justify himself.

[Tit 3:6-7 KJV]
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Lastly, AI should not be perceived as a crutch to learn or interpret the gospel, as is explained by the following verses. Regardless of how AI may characterize itself, nevertheless, anyone who leans upon it for their understanding has had the answers given to them in some sense/form or another (albeit usually incorrectly) and are they who do so, are not of strong meat - given that they have not exercised their own spiritual senses/intellect, to the finding of truth. God wrote the Bible in the form that He wanted it to be read in without it having artificial, intervening, undefinable, layers of logic inserted between it and its readers. Otherwise, we would be learning/adopting AI’s understanding of doctrine and of those who wrote AI's logic which is super-imposed upon the Bible.

[Heb 5:12-14 KJV]
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.