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A
What in the world is wrong with you all!!!!??? You are clearly demonizing the mosaic law, do you know God spoke to Moses and gave that law! Read your Bibles for crying out loud!! Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, and much of the NT is quotations from the mosaic law, and Jesus was teaching from the mosaic law, but was fixing errors that were put in buy the Pharisees. LORD HAVE MERCY ON YOU!!
L
Don't fight what isn't there. I don't think anyone is demonizing the Law.
Salvation is by faith in Christ alone, as the Scripture clearly teaches, and as all Believers agree. And we should also all agree that once we are saved, we should press on toward the goal of holiness, in following after Christ.
If someone is preaching faith plus works for salvation, then they preach a false gospel according to Galatians.
Salvation is by faith in Christ alone, as the Scripture clearly teaches, and as all Believers agree. And we should also all agree that once we are saved, we should press on toward the goal of holiness, in following after Christ.
If someone is preaching faith plus works for salvation, then they preach a false gospel according to Galatians.
Wow!! You sound like a mature Christian, listening to the Lord!
Then I don't see the purpose of this thread. From the time when Cain tried to attain atonement through his works and it was rejected, works without even the symbolism of Christ was not accepted. Even though the entire Hebrew language is based on doing to express an emotion, the spirit has been taught by the Lord as the most important. There have been sects such as the Pharisees during the time of Christ who distorted doing for salvation, but it is certainly not the problem in our churches, now. To the contrary, our problem is separating doing with our worship. The focus of the message Paul took to the gentiles was that first must come the spirit of the Lord, and it is still a focus of the church. Our need is not to learn the spirit, it is to learn the part that doing has in our worship, for it takes both.
Then I don't see the purpose of this thread. From the time when Cain tried to attain atonement through his works and it was rejected, works without even the symbolism of Christ was not accepted. Even though the entire Hebrew language is based on doing to express an emotion, the spirit has been taught by the Lord as the most important. There have been sects such as the Pharisees during the time of Christ who distorted doing for salvation, but it is certainly not the problem in our churches, now. To the contrary, our problem is separating doing with our worship. The focus of the message Paul took to the gentiles was that first must come the spirit of the Lord, and it is still a focus of the church. Our need is not to learn the spirit, it is to learn the part that doing has in our worship, for it takes both.
How can you think that God separates what we do from faith? If you have faith in the Lord you will be able to act on it, it would be lack of faith if we could not follow God. If we truly have faith, we can rely on what God tells us.
Abraham is an example of faith. His faith in God led him to say "yes Sir" to anything he felt God asked. We can't truly have faith and at the same time tell the Lord that no, we won't do as you say, we haven't enough faith in you for that.
If you believe you are as powerful as the Lord, that it is what you do and not what God does that makes for salvation, that is different.
Abraham is an example of faith. His faith in God led him to say "yes Sir" to anything he felt God asked. We can't truly have faith and at the same time tell the Lord that no, we won't do as you say, we haven't enough faith in you for that.
If you believe you are as powerful as the Lord, that it is what you do and not what God does that makes for salvation, that is different.
L
Yes, I do believe as you do, that genuine faith is shown by faithfulness. But you must separate the logical/natural following of faith, from what the Scriture clearly teaches: that works are not a part of salvation.
Try to understand the balance that is in the Word.
It says that true faith will show works, but the works don't save, the faith does.
I don't just think that God separates what we do from our faith, I know He does, because the Word says so.
Try to understand the balance that is in the Word.
It says that true faith will show works, but the works don't save, the faith does.
I don't just think that God separates what we do from our faith, I know He does, because the Word says so.
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Best post I've found on here as of yet. Kudos. I think there are two main groups on here who believe in adhering to OT regulations. Those who accept the Gospel fall into one category, and those who add to or subtract from the Gospel fall into another category. But I think a lot of people here are content to throw both groups into the same bin. But I've also learned the reason for this behavior is due to their particular theology, which in turn - and oddly enough - seems too close to diminishing the Gospel for comfort.
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Revelation 12
Look who makes war with the seed that: ^^^^^^^^
The issue is not new and was dealt with:
Acts 15
Ask yourselves what are the Commandments of GOD?
Yes, it is to believe on His Son an love one another.
Now the Messiah teaches us to Keep and teach even the least Commandment.
Do we believe Him and do as He taught us?
If at this point you reach for a verse to teach counter, then you are in error.
The Messiah taught us to make His Word our foundation.
Have you done this?
Look who makes war with the seed that: ^^^^^^^^
The issue is not new and was dealt with:
Acts 15
Ask yourselves what are the Commandments of GOD?
Yes, it is to believe on His Son an love one another.
Now the Messiah teaches us to Keep and teach even the least Commandment.
Do we believe Him and do as He taught us?
If at this point you reach for a verse to teach counter, then you are in error.
The Messiah taught us to make His Word our foundation.
Have you done this?
P
Gal 2:11-14 NASB
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
v 14, YLT
But when I saw that they are not walking uprightly to the truth of the good news, I said to Peter before all, 'If thou, being a Jew, in the manner of the nations dost live, and not in the manner of the Jews, how the nations dost thou compel to Judaize?
Strong's:
Ioudaizó: to Judaize
Original Word: Ἰουδαΐζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: Ioudaizó
Phonetic Spelling: (ee-oo-dah-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I live as a Jew
Definition: I live as a Jew (in religion, ceremonially)
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:
live as the Jews. From Ioudaios; to become a Judaean, i.e. "Judaize" -- live as the Jews.
So, there's the word in scripture. (I know, I was surprised, too! lol)
I will ask my husband what he thinks this encompasses, and I'd like to hear what you think about it.
At first glance it seems to mean more than circumcision, but since the first part of the chapter speaks to circumcision,
...I will ask my husband.
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
v 14, YLT
But when I saw that they are not walking uprightly to the truth of the good news, I said to Peter before all, 'If thou, being a Jew, in the manner of the nations dost live, and not in the manner of the Jews, how the nations dost thou compel to Judaize?
Strong's:
Ioudaizó: to Judaize
Original Word: Ἰουδαΐζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: Ioudaizó
Phonetic Spelling: (ee-oo-dah-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I live as a Jew
Definition: I live as a Jew (in religion, ceremonially)
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:
live as the Jews. From Ioudaios; to become a Judaean, i.e. "Judaize" -- live as the Jews.
So, there's the word in scripture. (I know, I was surprised, too! lol)
I will ask my husband what he thinks this encompasses, and I'd like to hear what you think about it.
At first glance it seems to mean more than circumcision, but since the first part of the chapter speaks to circumcision,
...I will ask my husband.
D
"Keep the commandments of God and have the testimony Of Christ" is a very true statement. Unfortunately the Judaizers seek to add to those commandments by insisting that Christians circumcise the flesh, observe sabbath, eat kosher foods, etc. The NT is clear we follow Christ AND HIS COMMANDMENTS. Jesus affirmed 9 out of ten commandments. Sabbath Christ never confirmed. Christ fulfilled the Mosaic laws and they have no hold on the believer.
P
I think we should be careful to see those who observe, say, the OC sabbath, on a person by person basis.
I know one member who I don't see teaching it, but observes on the basis of his/her conscience.
This member clearly understands righteousness by faith alone in Christ alone.
Though I disagree with his/her interpretation of the NT scriptures, I love this member very much and wouldn't condemn him/her for following conscience. I don't believe this person would do so to me, either. ♥
(sorry to be so vague, but I don't have permission to use this member's name, and don't want to call out a particular person without it.)
I know one member who I don't see teaching it, but observes on the basis of his/her conscience.
This member clearly understands righteousness by faith alone in Christ alone.
Though I disagree with his/her interpretation of the NT scriptures, I love this member very much and wouldn't condemn him/her for following conscience. I don't believe this person would do so to me, either. ♥
(sorry to be so vague, but I don't have permission to use this member's name, and don't want to call out a particular person without it.)
The Messiah taught us how to keep Sabbath.
The Sabbath Commandment was written with 9 others, that would be the "tenor" for our behaviour.
circumcision and "kosher" food was not part of this, so I believe Acts 15 to be the set standard for we Gentiles.
The other day after reading through different threads on different issues... i thought to myself, if GOD called us all in to give account of ourselves, which of us would not Call out for the Messiah and crumble.
At this knowing that all we have is the Messiah our Mediator.
You see my Faith is not in Keeping the Sabbath, not lying, stealing or cheating etc... nope it is in the One Good Shepherd who taught me to Keep and Teach the Commandments, ah, if only you could receive this.
The Sabbath Commandment was written with 9 others, that would be the "tenor" for our behaviour.
circumcision and "kosher" food was not part of this, so I believe Acts 15 to be the set standard for we Gentiles.
The other day after reading through different threads on different issues... i thought to myself, if GOD called us all in to give account of ourselves, which of us would not Call out for the Messiah and crumble.
At this knowing that all we have is the Messiah our Mediator.
You see my Faith is not in Keeping the Sabbath, not lying, stealing or cheating etc... nope it is in the One Good Shepherd who taught me to Keep and Teach the Commandments, ah, if only you could receive this.
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P
1. we do not discourage obedience. we repeatedly affirm there are about a thousand commands given in the NT that we must obey. no need to return to what has vanished/faded away.
2. Heb 10:14 tells us we who believe have been made perfect in Christ.
3. you said "Christ was sent by His Father to mold the world to better accept gentiles."
No, ma'am, Christ was sent to fulfill God's Promise of a Savior! But that's a classic example of where the teaching you sit under leads...
4. I haven't seen anyone say we are not to know the OT scriptures. I read from the OT and the NT daily, as I'm sure many do.
But we interpret the OT through the lens of the NT, not the other way around.
Heb 1:1,2
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son...
the whole book speaks to the superiority of the Lord Jesus.
5. I do not wish to decry your use of Old Covenant rituals to remind yourself of what the Lord has done for us.
But it's when people claim we MUST do so, or that we as Christians are mandated to follow the Sinaitic Covenant I must disagree.
We are people of the Covenant of Promise.
6. You complain of being judged, and then this: (??)
" I'm ashamed of you as fellow Christians."
You're an intelligent woman. Surely you see the dichotomy there?
2. Heb 10:14 tells us we who believe have been made perfect in Christ.
3. you said "Christ was sent by His Father to mold the world to better accept gentiles."
No, ma'am, Christ was sent to fulfill God's Promise of a Savior! But that's a classic example of where the teaching you sit under leads...
4. I haven't seen anyone say we are not to know the OT scriptures. I read from the OT and the NT daily, as I'm sure many do.
But we interpret the OT through the lens of the NT, not the other way around.
Heb 1:1,2
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son...
the whole book speaks to the superiority of the Lord Jesus.
5. I do not wish to decry your use of Old Covenant rituals to remind yourself of what the Lord has done for us.
But it's when people claim we MUST do so, or that we as Christians are mandated to follow the Sinaitic Covenant I must disagree.
We are people of the Covenant of Promise.
6. You complain of being judged, and then this: (??)
" I'm ashamed of you as fellow Christians."
You're an intelligent woman. Surely you see the dichotomy there?
D
Nope. Jesus never taught the NT believer to obey the sabbath, not even once as a hint. Jesus was a Jew and attend sabbath but never once are the NT believers ever told to obey the sabbath.
Yes, our faith is in Christ alone and never in Christ plus sabbath observance. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation, it is the free gift of God to a sinful world.
Yes, our faith is in Christ alone and never in Christ plus sabbath observance. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation, it is the free gift of God to a sinful world.
M
Written in Matthew 12
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?
6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
(where here? what could be greater than the temple and is now here?
7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the innocent.
8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. (one of his most potent claims that he is Lord of all)
On the 7th day God rested so we would observe him, take rest in him.
Once Jesus came he made it clear he is our rest, Jesus is the Sabbath.
We observe and take rest in him... at all times.
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?
6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
(where here? what could be greater than the temple and is now here?
7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the innocent.
8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. (one of his most potent claims that he is Lord of all)
On the 7th day God rested so we would observe him, take rest in him.
Once Jesus came he made it clear he is our rest, Jesus is the Sabbath.
We observe and take rest in him... at all times.
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Question for you Dan..
Did Jesus teach Old Testament truth?
Hebrews 9:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Did Jesus teach Old Testament truth?
Hebrews 9:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
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L
Still, taking a day off is sound advice. God did set it up for a reason.
BTW guys,
The gathering and fellowship of Believers is also commanded in the Letters of Paul. (not for our continued salvation, but because it is a good thing that God wants us to do)
This gathering (going to church) is never equated with the observing the Sabbath in the Bible.
Connecting Sabbath to a weekly gathering of Christians is a habit formed in the 1st century, but it is not a Biblical mandate. In-fact, once a week doesn't seem often enough when you read through what Paul says about gathering together.
BTW guys,
The gathering and fellowship of Believers is also commanded in the Letters of Paul. (not for our continued salvation, but because it is a good thing that God wants us to do)
This gathering (going to church) is never equated with the observing the Sabbath in the Bible.
Connecting Sabbath to a weekly gathering of Christians is a habit formed in the 1st century, but it is not a Biblical mandate. In-fact, once a week doesn't seem often enough when you read through what Paul says about gathering together.
B
So much for these things that concern believers about Judaizers and what they mingle with the gospel. We have in our own back yard professing believers who do the same with repentance and water baptism as some Judaizers do with circumcision and the Sabbath. They demand repentance and/or water baptism in addition to trusting in the cross making these things conditions to salvation. Don't say this is not true because it happens all around us and we want to tag these things as secondary and no big deal when in reality they are a form of leaven. Repentance is something that God grants the sinner through the gospel of grace so that they can turn from those things that have kept them in unbelief. If it involves personal sin the believer learns to put off the old man and all his deeds and the works of the flesh and puts on the one new man (Christ) that is created in righteousness and true holiness through mercy.
Water baptism is an individual act of faith that identifies the believer with Christ through his death, burial and resurrection. The baptism (or filling) of the Spirit happens when the sinner believes by faith in the name of Christ and the work of the blood of Christ and receives the indwelling of the Spirit that is imputed to him through faith. This is the one baptism that happens in Christ for every believer at the point of salvation. Water baptism is the outward act of an inward identification of the believer with Christ signifying the renewal of the new man and the drowning out of the old man. The believer gets baptized by water immersion because they have decided to follow Christ and identify with his name and with the cross. The baptism of the Spirit comes to the believer to reveal and guide them into truth, to be a witness within, to shed the love in the heart, to bear fruit in the believer, to continually point them to Christ, to quicken them by the word and to teach them how and what to pray.
There is leaven in both camps that we need to be concerned about as we continue to make the cross and the finished work of Christ the reference and focal point of who we have been made to be in the one new man. The cross and blood of Christ is what is being attacked or diminished when these things are being wrongfully added to complete a perfect and great salvation that comes by faith through mercy and grace.
Water baptism is an individual act of faith that identifies the believer with Christ through his death, burial and resurrection. The baptism (or filling) of the Spirit happens when the sinner believes by faith in the name of Christ and the work of the blood of Christ and receives the indwelling of the Spirit that is imputed to him through faith. This is the one baptism that happens in Christ for every believer at the point of salvation. Water baptism is the outward act of an inward identification of the believer with Christ signifying the renewal of the new man and the drowning out of the old man. The believer gets baptized by water immersion because they have decided to follow Christ and identify with his name and with the cross. The baptism of the Spirit comes to the believer to reveal and guide them into truth, to be a witness within, to shed the love in the heart, to bear fruit in the believer, to continually point them to Christ, to quicken them by the word and to teach them how and what to pray.
There is leaven in both camps that we need to be concerned about as we continue to make the cross and the finished work of Christ the reference and focal point of who we have been made to be in the one new man. The cross and blood of Christ is what is being attacked or diminished when these things are being wrongfully added to complete a perfect and great salvation that comes by faith through mercy and grace.
L
Be careful when dealing with repentance in regards to salvation. Although salvation doesn't actually 'depend' on repentance, the two are inseparable.
The Greek word for 'repentance' literally means "to turn".
The repentance called for in the Bible is to turn toward Christ.
^that was just a side-note. Your post was very good, and hits on several problem areas in our community.
The Greek word for 'repentance' literally means "to turn".
The repentance called for in the Bible is to turn toward Christ.
^that was just a side-note. Your post was very good, and hits on several problem areas in our community.