Baptism and holy spirit

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Mar 28, 2016
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Third, I think true tongues are human languages, even if the one speaking has no idea which language they are speaking and those present have no idea what language they are speaking. They could be speaking a DEAD language for all I know or they know. Therefore, since they are not speaking in their native tongue, they do not understand what they are saying.
They know what they are saying as God gives them the authority to do so, he is watching to make sure the words he puts on their lips are what he intended . He interprets it into the language of the ones who is receiving prophecy .It is not of a private interpretation that the person would have to go elsewhere to find the interpretation of God .

Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.
See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant. Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree. Then said the Lord unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word "to perform it". Jerimiah 1:9-12

In Job 23 we are informed he performs the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.as a imputed righteousness Again a work He performs in us to both will and do His good pleasure .He is of one mind in that way always doing whatsoever His soul pleases it is he that does make our hearts soft

But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.
For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:Job 23:13-16

We I believe should look to the foundation of the use of tongues not found in the new testament. The sign is not in respect to those who receive prophecy(God's word) .There is no outward visible sign for the believer who walks by faith (the unseen). The idea of a "sign gift" is foreign to the scriptures.

But rather the sign points to apostate Jews that stop up their ears and refused to believe God as that which alone comes by comparing that which is written to that which is written or faith to faith. The sign does not point to the believer of prophecy. But is a sign to those who oppose it as it is written. God with stammering lip (mocking lips ) is the speaker , as it informs us( precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (sola scriptura) ). They were following the oral traditions as a law of the fathers (men) making all things written in the law and the prophets with out effect.

Note... to fall backward is a sign men are under the judgment of God. The sign seekers( Charismatics) today have turned that up side also, being slain in the spirit is a hope that proves they are with God

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken .Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste Isaiah 28

Zion is another way of identifying the bride of Christ, the church... he that believes prophecy shall not make haste or has the patience of the saints.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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I still don't think there are that many who think God has done away with tongues...I think it would be more accurate to say that more have a suspicion that tongues might just be earthly languages, not that they think they are gone forever...and in that case, it wouldn't be accurate to say they think tongues have ceased. They would just think tongues are a different thing than you do.

And even among them, I think most are okay with you thinking you are speaking an angel language as long as you don't call someone doomed/without the Spirit for not talking in that language.

But I was wrong once before. It could happen again...:LOL::ROFL:
the word of God is the authoritiative answer to what anyone thinks of feels about "Gifts of the Holy Spirit".
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The thing is 1 Cor. 12 does not say "to one is given the "gift of" tongues" nor does it say "to another is given the "gift of" interpretation. They are all given to form a whole - the manifestation of the spirit. We are given the gift of holy spirit when we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38) and the manifestation of the spirit is manifested forth from that one "gift" - holy spirit.

v4 does talk about "different kinds of gifts", v5 does talk about different kinds of service and v6 there are different kinds of energizing but in all these, it is the same God at work energizing . . . then the subject does change (whether we believe it or not) to manifestations . . . so from gifts, to services and to who energizes. Then the manifestations, 9 listed, and the summary v11 reiterating v6 . . . all ties together very well.

Definitions of words have meaning and we need to understand the meanings. Hey, it's perfectly fine to disagree - we are still brother and sister in Christ, and stand together on the gospel. You're the best EG!
1 cor 12 does not say this?

I think you need to read again, I posted it to you, and even highlighted where it says the very thing/


1 cor 12:

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works [e]all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

The manifestation is given to all.

How is it manifested?


8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,

to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,

9 to another faith by the same Spirit,

to another gifts of healings by [f]the same Spirit,

10 to another the working of miracles,

to another prophecy,

to another discerning of spirits,

to another different kinds of tongues,

to another the interpretation of tongues.

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Out of all these people, Only one is given the gift of tongues, as the HS wills.


No please do not say again 1 cor 12 does not say the HS distributes each gift accordingly as he wills, including the gift of tongues, Not everyone in a group recieves all of these gifts.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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1 cor 12 does not say this?

I think you need to read again, I posted it to you, and even highlighted where it says the very thing/

1 cor 12:
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works [e]all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

v4 . . . there are diversities of gifts - So what are the gifts? Gifts are personally and individually given . . . There is the gift of salvation, there are the gift ministries (Eph. 4:7-13), healing is a gift (1 Cor. 12:9,28,30) . . .
v5 . . . people are gifted with different services - how they serve the Lord . . .
v6 . . . who does the energizing of these gifts (4), these services (v5) - it is the same God at work . . . Correct, 1 Cor. 12:8-10 does not say "gift of tongues" nor "gift of interpretation".
The manifestation is given to all. . .
Subject just changed from gifts, services and energizings to "manifestation of the spirit" . . . given to EVERY believer. The gift of holy spirit is given to EVERY believer . . . EVERY believer has the power of holy spirit . . . EVERY believer has the innate ability to manifest . . .
How is it manifested?
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,

to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,

9 to another faith by the same Spirit,

to another gifts of healings by [f]the same Spirit,

10 to another the working of miracles,

to another prophecy,

to another discerning of spirits,

to another different kinds of tongues,

to another the interpretation of tongues.

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
Out of all these people, Only one is given the gift of tongues, as the HS wills.
How can "another" allude to the believer, as you are reading it, when believers would be of the "same kind" and there would have been no need for two different Greek words to be used with completely two different meanings - so wouldn't allos, meaning of the same kind, have been used throughout, if it pertained to the believer?

Verse 7 just told us that EVERY believer can manifest the gift of holy spirit . . . then why would 8-10 come right back and say some won't, some will? . . . . that would be an immediate contradiction!!!!! Now, will EVERY believer manifest AT THE SAME TIME - no - only as the Lord energizes in each believer . . . so that things will be done decently and in order.


No please do not say again 1 cor 12 does not say the HS distributes each gift accordingly as he wills, including the gift of tongues, Not everyone in a group recieves all of these gifts.
I read in 1 Cor. 12 about there being different kinds of gifts but the same Spirit - I read where there are different kinds of services but the same Lord - I read that it is the same God that energizes these gifts and services - then I read about the manifestation of the Spirit given to every believer - these are manifestations of the gift of holy spirit - nothing in this list pertaining to "gifts" except healing. WORDS have meanings . . . these words: gifts, services, energizing, and manifestations - do not all mean "GIFT". When I say gift of tongues and gift of interpretation of tongues is not there . . . I am meaning that they are not gifts BUT manifestations.

I can in all honesty say these manifestations of the spirit listed are the work and/or energizing of one and the same spirit.
That every individual believer has the innate power via the gift of holy spirit given them to manifest as it says in verse 7, every believer will be energized, not all at once, but as God determines so that things will be done decently and in order.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I will try, You need to learn to quote right, or at least, edit your post to get all the quotes in.

from what I read. I can not agree.

Every person has been given the gift of the HS, there is no argument here

Every church has people with differing gifts which make the church a whole. of course God is the head.

Different people are given different gifts. which are manifestations of the spirit (gifts of the spirit manifest his presence and his power.

He does not have to give every gift to manifest his power. Just having certain people each with different gifts is enough.

He also has a checks and balance He gives some the gift of tongues, and some the gift of interpretation of tongues. That way people can not claim God spoke, when God did not.

I guess if you want to see it the way you do, you will.. I just do not see how you can see it that way,
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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Those are some really good posts there EG. :)

As always, I am okay with anyone having a different interpretation of the verses they are reading than I have.

The one and only thing that bothers me concerning this...topic, is if someone tries to force someone else to walk in a gifting/manifest the Spirit in a way that the Spirit hasn't given them to. This is trying to control the Spirit AND the other person, in my opinion.

The case I always find when I have a discussion on this topic is that I have no issue with anyone speaking in tongues but it is they who have an issue with me not speaking in tongues. They seem bound and determined to get me doing it. :D
 
Feb 21, 2012
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I will try, You need to learn to quote right, or at least, edit your post to get all the quotes in.

from what I read. I can not agree.

Every person has been given the gift of the HS, there is no argument here

Every church has people with differing gifts which make the church a whole. of course God is the head.

Different people are given different gifts. which are manifestations of the spirit (gifts of the spirit manifest his presence and his power.

He does not have to give every gift to manifest his power. Just having certain people each with different gifts is enough.

He also has a checks and balance He gives some the gift of tongues, and some the gift of interpretation of tongues. That way people can not claim God spoke, when God did not.

I guess if you want to see it the way you do, you will.. I just do not see how you can see it that way,
Where you read "gifts of tongues" and "gift of interpretation of tongues", I don't read that . . . mainly because it's not there to read. I read we each have the manifestation of the spirit, i.e. the manifestation of the gift of holy spirit - we all have the gift of holy spirit and we all have the innate ability via the gift of holy spirit and therefore, we can all manifest the holy spirit, just as v7 says . . . we will not all manifest tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy in a church gathering but we will manifest as God energizes us - two or at the most by three, one at a time - decently and in order.

As I said - you read it your way - gifts, services, and manifestations are all the same to when you read v4-10; I see a change in subject matter - gifts, to services to God energizing then the manifestations, the list of manifestations and then the reiteration of God energizing all in all. It's all okay.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Where you read "gifts of tongues" and "gift of interpretation of tongues", I don't read that . . . mainly because it's not there to read. I read we each have the manifestation of the spirit, i.e. the manifestation of the gift of holy spirit - we all have the gift of holy spirit and we all have the innate ability via the gift of holy spirit and therefore, we can all manifest the holy spirit, just as v7 says . . . we will not all manifest tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy in a church gathering but we will manifest as God energizes us - two or at the most by three, one at a time - decently and in order.

As I said - you read it your way - gifts, services, and manifestations are all the same to when you read v4-10; I see a change in subject matter - gifts, to services to God energizing then the manifestations, the list of manifestations and then the reiteration of God energizing all in all. It's all okay.
Well I guess I am not saved then, I have maybe one or two of those gifts.

Also. Not sure what your reading.. We must be reading different bibles.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Is Paul saying that praying without understanding is unfruitful as in empty of virtue?

Could it be that the translators of this passage did not determine from the original texts that the spirit here is not the Holy Spirit since they did not capitalize the word spirit in the translation?

1100 γλῶσσα glossa gloce-sah’
of uncertain affinity; n f; TDNT-1:719,123; {See TDNT 158}
AV-tongue 50; 50
1) the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2) a tongue
1a) the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

4151 πνεῦμα pneuma pnyoo’-mah
from 4154; n n; TDNT-6:332,876; {See TDNT 643}
AV-Spirit 111, (Holy) Ghost 89, Spirit (of God) 13, Spirit (of the Lord) 5, (My) Spirit 3, Spirit (of truth) 3, Spirit (of Christ) 2, human (spirit) 49, (evil) spirit 47, spirit (general) 26, spirit 8, (Jesus’ own) spirit 6, (Jesus’ own) ghost 2, misc 21; 385
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the Holy Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of Truth)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

Just asking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 21, 2012
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Well I guess I am not saved then, I have maybe one or two of those gifts.

Also. Not sure what your reading.. We must be reading different bibles.
I never said one was not saved if they did not manifest the gift of holy spirit . . . well, I bet you hear from God so that would be word of wisdom and word of knowledge; I know that you probably discern spirits; I think that you have faith to walk out on what God ask you to do; and as for gifts; I bet you are a good teacher; and as for service; I bet you are a good encourager, a good builder-upper!

Why do you say that we are reading different Bibles and in what regard?
 
Feb 21, 2012
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I would say the two of you are in agreement then on this point.
I don't know - I believe that EG is saying that not every believer can speak in tongues; I believe that every believer can manifest speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 12:7) - just that in a church service God will energize one believer at a time as it says in 1 Cor. 14:27. :)
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
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He also has a checks and balance He gives some the gift of tongues,
This is a specific voice gift - actually named diversities of tongues - operated in a worship meeting by a Spirit-filled
disciple who already is able to pray in tongues due to their baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Such a speaking in tongues in a meeting is then followed by interpretation.

If you are not Pentecost and do not operate the three voice gifts of the Holy Spirit in your worship/communion meetings
[in accordance with the instructions in 1Corinthians 14] then you know nothing, and I mean nothing, about how this
all works and what 1Corinthians 12 and 14 are all about.

The epistles are written to the Spirit-filled church not to Catholics, not to Protestants, not to Orthodox.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Is Paul saying that praying without understanding is unfruitful as in empty of virtue?

Could it be that the translators of this passage did not determine from the original texts that the spirit here is not the Holy Spirit since they did not capitalize the word spirit in the translation?

1100 γλῶσσα glossa gloce-sah’
of uncertain affinity; n f; TDNT-1:719,123; {See TDNT 158}
AV-tongue 50; 50
1) the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2) a tongue
1a) the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

4151 πνεῦμα pneuma pnyoo’-mah
from 4154; n n; TDNT-6:332,876; {See TDNT 643}
AV-Spirit 111, (Holy) Ghost 89, Spirit (of God) 13, Spirit (of the Lord) 5, (My) Spirit 3, Spirit (of truth) 3, Spirit (of Christ) 2, human (spirit) 49, (evil) spirit 47, spirit (general) 26, spirit 8, (Jesus’ own) spirit 6, (Jesus’ own) ghost 2, misc 21; 385
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the Holy Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of Truth)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

Just asking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I like the way the ESV is worded 1 Cor. 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. . . He didn't say the praying is unfruitful - He said his mind (understanding) is unfruitful - just as it says in 1 Cor. 14:2

Actually the original text was all caps . . . the translators made the decision to keep the cap or not to keep the cap. Sometimes holy spirit is meaning the "gift" and then the Holy Spirit as in God . . .
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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I don't know - I believe that EG is saying that not every believer can speak in tongues; I believe that every believer can manifest speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 12:7) - just that in a church service God will energize one believer at a time as it says in 1 Cor. 14:27. :)
Except, as he pointed out, that is not what Corinthians says. It's very clear... to one person, this is given, to another person, this is given.... simple English and grammar.

Scripture clearly states that not every believer will manifest every gift. It is the complete reason for this whole passage, to show how we, as believers ALL have a role to play, and the roles are NOT the same. Just as a body has different parts, each with a specific role to play. If you lose a hand, you don't start picking things up with your ear. Different roles. Different manifestations.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Untrue
only a Pentecostal Spirit-filled Church receives and operates [puts into effect] the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit.
yeah whatever, keep believing that nonsense.

and by the way. there is more than 9 gifts of the HS
 
Feb 21, 2012
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Untrue
only a Pentecostal Spirit-filled Church receives and operates [puts into effect] the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit.
This is a specific voice gift - actually named diversities of tongues - operated in a worship meeting by a Spirit-filled
disciple who already is able to pray in tongues due to their baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Such a speaking in tongues in a meeting is then followed by interpretation.

If you are not Pentecost and do not operate the three voice gifts of the Holy Spirit in your worship/communion meetings
[in accordance with the instructions in 1Corinthians 14] then you know nothing, and I mean nothing, about how this
all works and what 1Corinthians 12 and 14 are all about.

The epistles are written to the Spirit-filled church not to Catholics, not to Protestants, not to Orthodox.
Whaaat? Are you saying that only the Pentecostal denomination are spirit filled? Are you saying that ALL who believe and confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead are NOT spirit filled believers?

I am not of the Pentecostal denomination so I guess I am a Protestant . . . . does that make me not spirit-filled? You need to rethink your position - I am a tongue speaking Protestant!!! LOL!