Baptism and holy spirit

[Noose]

Why wouldn't it be?
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


Every Christian has received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and can operate the manifestations of that gift. And Paul gives specific instruction that when a person speaks in tongues aloud in the church, he must interpret so the church can be edified.


Paul didn't get that memo...

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.


You've done something, all right..


Let me guess... You would categorically dismiss them as Satan-possessed.


If they were speaking of their own free will, there is no reason to doubt them.

You are far from understanding Paul; Paul insists on understanding all along, something that is lacking today for the 'only gift' that we are left with in 'abundance'.
Even if someone came to me today and spoke in tongues and interpreted it for me i would still dismiss them coz, what Paul says is that the understanding is what you tell people, not the incomprehensible words. Plus, i know the antichrist reigns today, i can't fall for his tricks.

Why would all/many people insist on speaking in tongues and not raising the dead? didn't Jesus say whoever believes will do greater works than He did which means the same spirit that gives this many people the ability to speak in tongues should also give as many the ability to raise the dead and heal the sick?
Why do you reduce God to only speaking incomprehensible words and not raising the dead, is God incapable or is there anything hard that He can't do?

 

[notuptome]

absalutely not it is not how we see ourselves. Nothing in the context of the chapter even comes close to that idea, . You are elitzing scripture. and you have not scripture ref but one verse to make that assertion .

LOL Looking through a glass darkly refers to and translated into more modern English is a mirror. We see ourselves through the word of God. We see ourselves as sinners each and everyone of us as sinners with none being righteous by the standard of Gods word.

The greatest love is the love God showed to us by sending His Son to shed His blood on the cross of Calvary to atone for our sin.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

Be curious no more. Lots more if you're interested.

many many foolishness has happened with the things of God YET, that does not change HIS word and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1cor 12, 13, and 14 are for today. Videos will not change the word of God nor does the abuse however, these men will answer to God as will we all.

 

[shrume]

You are far from understanding Paul; Paul insists on understanding all along

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

something that is lacking today for the 'only gift' that we are left with in 'abundance'.

Tongues is not a gift, it's one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is something God would like every Christian to do (1 Cor 14:5).

Even if someone came to me today and spoke in tongues and interpreted it for me i would still dismiss them

I wouldn't.

coz, what Paul says is that the understanding is what you tell people, not the incomprehensible words.

Paul says that when a person speaks in tongues aloud in the church, he must interpret, so the church can be edified (1 Cor 14:5b).

Plus, i know the antichrist reigns today, i can't fall for his tricks.

Who is he? (also see previous response..)

Why would all/many people insist on speaking in tongues and not raising the dead?

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues....

And there are times when the dead are raised.

didn't Jesus say whoever believes will do greater works than He did which means the same spirit that gives this many people the ability to speak in tongues should also give as many the ability to raise the dead and heal the sick?

The ability exists. Christians can operate some of the manifestations at will. Others require revelation from God.

Why do you reduce God to only speaking incomprehensible words

God does not speak in tongues. It's something we are to do.

and not raising the dead, is God incapable or is there anything hard that He can't do?

See above.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

On the day of Pentecost, the hearers DID hear in their own language, but that is not the norm, and it fact it rarely happens. The hearers generally do not hear in their own language. That's why Paul says that if someone speaks in tongues in public, he must interpret.

I think there is no reason to expect that hearers still don't hear in their own language or that tongues work any differently. But we are really talking about a gathering where all speak the same language. In that case, they are believers. And they speak the same language. And at Pentecost, tongues manifested for unbelievers to hear the gospel in their language.

BUT, paul says to not forbid speaking in tongues in the gathering if it can be interpreted. But if an unbeliever of a different tongue is present, I can imagine God would cause a man to have an outburst of tongues for that persons benefit.

 

[CS1]

LOL Looking through a glass darkly refers to and translated into more modern English is a mirror. We see ourselves through the word of God. We see ourselves as sinners each and everyone of us as sinners with none being righteous by the standard of Gods word.

The greatest love is the love God showed to us by sending His Son to shed His blood on the cross of Calvary to atone for our sin.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

lol they did not have a modern translation when Paul was led by the Holy Spirit to say that. And English? LOL really? hahahah I thought you would have said Latin, or Greek. But English ahahahhaha . we do not see ourselves through the word of God our life are to be lived according to the Word of God and that happens when we have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ not a modern translation. I'm sorry but you are unbiblical and in error, nothing in any of the writings of the New Testament suggest you are incomplete without a modern translation, if you can only use 1cor 13;8 to make this point then you are just as bad as the UPC Oneness and baptized in Jesus name only. I’m done here .

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

many many foolishness has happened with the things of God YET, that does not change HIS word and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1cor 12, 13, and 14 are for today. Videos will not change the word of God nor does the abuse however, these men will answer to God as will we all.

It's what I call The Tolstoy Effect.
Tolstoy wrote The Gospel in Brief. He removed any miracles he had ever seen someone abuse or cause confusion with.
That's what people who look at tongues nonsense do. They remove/forbid whatever someone has abused.
It's not wise.

 

[notuptome]

lol they did not have a modern translation when Paul was led by the Holy Spirit to say that. And English? LOL really? hahahah I thought you would have said Latin, or Greek. But English ahahahhaha . we do not see ourselves through the word of God our life are to be lived according to the Word of God and that happens when we have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ not a modern translation. I'm sorry but you are unbiblical and in error, nothing in any of the writings of the New Testament suggest you are incomplete without a modern translation, if you can only use 1cor 13;8 to make this point then you are just as bad as the UPC Oneness and baptized in Jesus name only. I’m done here .

Now you are just being inane. You need the modern translation not Paul.

If you cannot address the scripture then you simply offer something off the wall and blame the other person.

All things are done to glorify God and not man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

It's what I call The Tolstoy Effect.
Tolstoy wrote The Gospel in Brief. He removed any miracles he had ever seen someone abuse or cause confusion with.
That's what people who look at tongues nonsense do. They remove/forbid whatever someone has abused.
It's not wise.

Scripture warns against just hoovering up everything that sounds spiritual. Scripture demands that we discern that which is true to the word and that which is not.

Wisdom is achieved by learning the scriptures, understanding what you have learned and then God will give you wisdom to follow His wisdom to know more of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[shrume]

I think there is no reason to expect that hearers still don't hear in their own language

So why does Paul state that when spoken in public, tongues must be interpreted?

or that tongues work any differently.

Tongues do not work any differently.

But we are really talking about a gathering where all speak the same language. In that case, they are believers. And they speak the same language.

Generally true. That's why when spoken in public, tongues must be interpreted.

And at Pentecost, tongues manifested for unbelievers to hear the gospel in their language.

The Bible does not say that. It says the apostles were speaking the wonderful works of God (Acts 2:11). Speaking the wonderful works of God is not teaching the gospel. Tongues is not a teaching mechanism. It is speaking the wonderful works of God, magnifying God (Acts 10:46), speaking TO God divine secrets (1 Cor 14:2), giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17), and more.

BUT, paul says to not forbid speaking in tongues in the gathering if it can be interpreted.

Paul says not to forbid speaking in tongues, period. God would like all Christians to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5). But if someone wants to speak in tongues aloud in a group, he must interpret.

But if an unbeliever of a different tongue is present, I can imagine God would cause a man to have an outburst of tongues for that persons benefit.

God does not possess people. He does not force people to speak in tongues against their will.

 

[shrume]

If you cannot address the scripture then you simply offer something off the wall and blame the other person.

Should we go back and count the number of times you have done exactly that to me, Roger?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Scripture warns against just hoovering up everything that sounds spiritual. Scripture demands that we discern that which is true to the word and that which is not.

Wisdom is achieved by learning the scriptures, understanding what you have learned and then God will give you wisdom to follow His wisdom to know more of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Tongues are true to the word.
Just because some get up to extreme nonsense and counterfeiting, that doesn't make them any less true to the word.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

So why does Paul state that when spoken in public, tongues must be interpreted?

Because it is a gathering of believers, not unbelievers. They can already hear what is being said in their own language. They do not need the gospel preached to them in some other language. But this is not a reason to forbid it - just to say that they should keep silent unless an interpreter of various tongues is present or a person who speaks the tongue is present.

 

[CS1]

Now you are just being inane. You need the modern translation not Paul.

If you cannot address the scripture then you simply offer something off the wall and blame the other person.

All things are done to glorify God and not man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

you do not understand authorial intent of Biblical context. God is the one who is in charge of His word. And it was the preaching of the Gospel message that led to the writings being recorded. This was Done by God and the Holy Spirit and his gifts recorded are not done away with because the Holy Spirt is eternal as are His gifts UNTIL Jesus returns as Paul was speaking of in 1cor 13:8 and in all his writings this was a normative..



I know you and I will never agree but for all who are seeing this debate I would like to say just think about what notuptome is saying. A modern translation of the Word of God is more important for Paul an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ , led by the Holy Spirit whose Job is to lead and guide; you into all truth. TO look for a modern writing of the word of God then see Jesus face to face. And remember Paul was a Jew what did face to faced mean to him? You would have to look at the context of veil- worship. Could all go behind the veil? No. The saved blood bought “Church” will . we shall see Him as HE is. Praise the Lord.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And shrume, if one is preaching the gospel, they ARE speaking of the wondrous works of God!

 

[CS1]

Scripture warns against just hoovering up everything that sounds spiritual. Scripture demands that we discern that which is true to the word and that which is not.

Wisdom is achieved by learning the scriptures, understanding what you have learned and then God will give you wisdom to follow His wisdom to know more of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

and the scriptures also tell us to study. More of Christ ? you think you know more then what has been given to each saved person? Wisdom ? you have more wisdom then those here ? Discernment is a gift of the Holy Spirit are you saying your wisdom is the same as Spirtual gift of Discernment ?

 

[Noose]

When did the antichrist step on the scene?

3.5 AD
This are spiritual things and even if i explain i'd be wasting my breath and time i believe- for people that are looking for physical signs missed the mark looong time ago, we go by understanding. Jesus said, "if you see the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Let the reader understand). If you don't go by understanding then you have already missed the mark.

It's true that there are many antichrists in this world, but did you get special revelation showing you who THE antichrist is? Do you believe were living in the trib now? Are we living in the book of Revelation now?

I think it's still future.

We are deep into the great tribulation trust me. What makes the great tribulation?

Rev 6: Death by, sword (wars), famine (Natural disasters), Pestilences (Diseases), beasts of the earth (Animals & machinery- accidents).
Anybody who says people today are not dying because of these things are just deluded, people die from accidents/wars/diseases/natural disasters.

Are we in Revelation times?
We are deep into the Revelation times we are almost over.

Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

Revelation is a time conscious book, so timely that Christ's Atonement work became effective at Rev 14:13 , at that very moment- the reason the angel said “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
If the angel was talking about a future event he would have said "from that moment on" not "from now on"

So, people were to overcome the antichrist form that moment on, how does anyone in the 21st century claim that we are not yet there?

You think you know it, but you are wrong.

I know what i speak of, trust me.

 

[shrume]

Because it is a gathering of believers, not unbelievers. They can already hear what is being said in their own language.

Not if someone is speaking in tongues.

They do not need the gospel preached to them in some other language.

Speaking in tongues is not preaching the gospel.

But this is not a reason to forbid it - just to say that they should keep silent unless an interpreter of various tongues is present or a person who speaks the tongue is present.

Again, the person speaking in tongues is to be the one to interpret.

And there is nothing in the Bible about speaking in tongues only if someone who knows the language that is spoken in a tongue.

Tongues is a manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is not for teaching or preaching the gospel. It is prayer and praise to God, it is giving thanks to God, it builds you up, and more.

And shrume, if one is preaching the gospel, they ARE speaking of the wondrous works of God!

But if a person is speaking in tongues, he is not preaching the gospel.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Not if someone is speaking in tongues.

Not unless they are speaking in tongues when they shouldn't be. If they should be, God will provide an interpreter. Hence, they will be hearing then in their own tongue.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Again, the person speaking in tongues is to be the one to interpret.

Again, I disagree.