Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

[eternally-gratefull]

Saying that he "chose" to implies that it was simply a choice... maybe I will, maybe I won't. He just "happened" to choose to do so, but if he had "chosen" not to, no big deal.

Baptism is more important than that. Just ask Jesus. Or Paul. Or Peter. Or Philip. Or any of the millions of believers that have entered the kingdom since Pentecost, up until the 1800's, when some "enlightened" folks decided it was simply an optional nicety....

He also chose to have faith, Chose to go to church, Chose to serve the poor. So your readinbng into what he said something he never said, Your trying to tell him what he means and not allowing him to tell you what it meant.

Baptism is no more important than circumcision was to the jews, Yet no one was ever saved getting their forskin cut. Any more than any one has ever, is now, or will ever be saved by doing the work of going to a place to have some man immerse you in water.

But hey, if you wish to place your eternity and in the hands of your pastor. Feel free. And I understand, the4 jews made the same decision with their priest,

Just do those of us who place our salvation and cleansing in the hands of God. Stop judging us because wer trust God not man.

 

[hornetguy]

He also chose to have faith, Chose to go to church, Chose to serve the poor. So your readinbng into what he said something he never said, Your trying to tell him what he means and not allowing him to tell you what it meant.

Baptism is no more important than circumcision was to the jews, Yet no one was ever saved getting their forskin cut. Any more than any one has ever, is now, or will ever be saved by doing the work of going to a place to have some man immerse you in water.

But hey, if you wish to place your eternity and in the hands of your pastor. Feel free. And I understand, the4 jews made the same decision with their priest,

Just do those of us who place our salvation and cleansing in the hands of God. Stop judging us because wer trust God not man.

You should be honest enough to not try to put words in my mouth. I am not telling him what he means, I'm telling him what his statement would mean to others who hear it. Have you ever heard "perception is reality" ?

Baptism is not a "work"... it is obedience to Jesus.

Being baptized is not "putting your faith in the hands of a pastor"..... where do you GET this stuff?

And, really classy move, insinuating that if someone believes and obeys Jesus and is baptized, that somehow they are trusting in men, and not God.... classy.

 

[DJ2]

The Pharisees claimed their theology was dependent on the word of God. Problem was they served God with their lips but not with their hearts.

Grace is the means of salvation. Grace is not dependent on water baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jesus never attempted to use grace as an excuse to ignore His commands for baptism as you are doing now. Which would put you squarely in camp with the Pharisees.

Obedience is the means to grace, grace is the means to salvation.

Hebrews 5:9 "This made Him the perfect high priest, who provides the way for everyone who obeys Him to be saved forever."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You should be honest enough to not try to put words in my mouth. I am not telling him what he means, I'm telling him what his statement would mean to others who hear it. Have you ever heard "perception is reality" ?

In my view, The only people I can see who are going to hear it that way are people like you, who want to see it. It is no different than people telling others that because they reject works as a means of salvation, they are excusing sin, and slaying we can get saved and live like the world living in all kinds of sin. And thats ok. Neither are fact.

He said baptism was good. Thats why he did it, because the thought it was important. In no way shape or form did he say or indicate he thought it was something we could do or not do it with no repercussions

Baptism is not a "work"... it is obedience to Jesus.

It is a work. I gave you other things which are obedience to Jesus, they are all classified as works. That alone is enough. But the fact you are doing something which SAVES YOURSELF. Means you are boasting of your work. WHich takes away from christ.

Being baptized is not "putting your faith in the hands of a pastor"..... where do you GET this stuff?

Lets see.

1. Your putting your faith in a man to immerse (baptise) you in water as a means of cleaning your sins,

2. as apposed to those placing their faith in the work of God (who happened to raise Jesus from the dead), who circumcised us with the circumcision done by the hand of God by immersing (baptize) you into the death and burial of CHRIST and in his BODY and in HIM,

and you can not see the difference?

And, really classy move, insinuating that if someone believes and obeys Jesus and is baptized, that somehow they are trusting in men, and not God.... classy.

See my last 2 points.

Either you trust God completely. And call out on him to saved you (salvation include cleansing) or you claim you have faith in God. Then turn to man to wash you

Why you can not see modern day baptism is being misapplied the same way OT circumcision was. I do nto know. Maybe you can answer this?

 

[notuptome]

Jesus never attempted to use grace as an excuse to ignore His commands for baptism as you are doing now. Which would put you squarely in camp with the Pharisees.

Obedience is the means to grace, grace is the means to salvation.

Hebrews 5:9 "This made Him the perfect high priest, who provides the way for everyone who obeys Him to be saved forever."

See here is where you cross over to Romanism. Baptism is not a means of grace. Grace is without any conditions because grace is unmerited.

You are making water baptism a means to make you good enough to receive grace. Grace is received by believing the word of God.

The only baptism Jesus commanded and taught is the Holy Spirit baptism and He was the only one Who had the authority to baptize with the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus never attempted to use grace as an excuse to ignore His commands for baptism as you are doing now. Which would put you squarely in camp with the Pharisees.

Obedience is the means to grace, grace is the means to salvation.

Hebrews 5:9 "This made Him the perfect high priest, who provides the way for everyone who obeys Him to be saved forever."

Wow. Where do you get this? Obedience is a MEANS to grace? WHAT????

Grace is required because we do not deserve it. If obedience (works) is a means to grace. It is not grace, it is called works.

Paul tried to show you there are differences, and it is only one or the other. Why do you not listen to paul? And stop listening to your catholic roots which is where this obedience is a means of grace comes from.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

See here is where you cross over to Romanism. Baptism is not a means of grace. Grace is without any conditions because grace is unmerited.

You are making water baptism a means to make you good enough to receive grace. Grace is received by believing the word of God.

The only baptism Jesus commanded and taught is the Holy Spirit baptism and He was the only one Who had the authority to baptize with the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I was going to argue, But the more I thought about it, the more I think you may be right.

Jesus never commanded any person to be baptised. He commanded the people who went into the world to baptise those who are made disciples.

 

[notuptome]

I was going to argue, But the more I thought about it, the more I think you may be right.

Jesus never commanded any person to be baptised. He commanded the people who went into the world to baptise those who are made disciples.

I understand but if you were thinking of the great commission in Mat 28 the construction in the Greek tends to a submerging like a sunken ship baptism not a dip and move on baptism. But that is another study on its own.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I understand but if you were thinking of the great commission in Mat 28 the construction in the Greek tends to a submerging like a sunken ship baptism not a dip and move on baptism. But that is another study on its own.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

you lost me here brother..lol

 

[notuptome]

you lost me here brother..lol

Don't worry happens all the time. The Lord never loses track so it's all good.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DJ2]

See here is where you cross over to Romanism. Baptism is not a means of grace. Grace is without any conditions because grace is unmerited.

You are making water baptism a means to make you good enough to receive grace. Grace is received by believing the word of God.

The only baptism Jesus commanded and taught is the Holy Spirit baptism and He was the only one Who had the authority to baptize with the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

See here is where you cross over to Universalism. Baptism is not a act of merit. If grace is without any conditions then grace is universal. You have boxed yourself into a corner.

You are making your belief a means to make yourself good enough to receive grace. Grace is received by obeying the word of God.

The only baptism commanded and taught for the remission of sins is water baptism and you have no right to say otherwise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

See here is where you cross over to Universalism. Baptism is not a act of merit.

Here is where you cross into lack of not understanding. If salvation is merited on baptism, then it is an act of merit.

If grace is without any conditions then grace is universal. You have boxed yourself into a corner.

If graced is based on merit, then it is not grace, it is called (biblically) works.

You are making your belief a means to make yourself good enough to receive grace. Grace is received by obeying the word of God.

Your the one proposing we have to do a work of righteousness and obey to recieve grace, Not us. So again, You misunderstand and ghave things twisted.

The only baptism commanded and taught for the remission of sins is water baptism and you have no right to say otherwise.

Actually the only thing commanded for remission is faith in christ. Baptism is commanded to those who have recieved remission (water) not in order to recieve remission (your stuck on an English translation)

 

[DJ2]

Here is where you cross into lack of not understanding. If salvation is merited on baptism, then it is an act of merit.



If graced is based on merit, then it is not grace, it is called (biblically) works.


Your the one proposing we have to do a work of righteousness and obey to recieve grace, Not us. So again, You misunderstand and ghave things twisted.



Actually the only thing commanded for remission is faith in christ. Baptism is commanded to those who have recieved remission (water) not in order to recieve remission (your stuck on an English translation)

(your stuck on an English translation)

What does this mean?

 

[notuptome]

See here is where you cross over to Universalism. Baptism is not a act of merit. If grace is without any conditions then grace is universal. You have boxed yourself into a corner.

You are making your belief a means to make yourself good enough to receive grace. Grace is received by obeying the word of God.

The only baptism commanded and taught for the remission of sins is water baptism and you have no right to say otherwise.

Nice try but that dog won't hunt.

I have the scripture to say that water is of no merit in salvation. The baptism that remits sin is the Holy Spirit baptism and only Christ is able to administer that baptism. John said it in chapter one verse thirty three.

Your teaching denies the sufficiency of grace because you make water necessary for the remission of sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[hornetguy]

In my view, The only people I can see who are going to hear it that way are people like you, who want to see it. It is no different than people telling others that because they reject works as a means of salvation, they are excusing sin, and slaying we can get saved and live like the world living in all kinds of sin. And thats ok. Neither are fact.

He said baptism was good. Thats why he did it, because the thought it was important. In no way shape or form did he say or indicate he thought it was something we could do or not do it with no repercussions



It is a work. I gave you other things which are obedience to Jesus, they are all classified as works. That alone is enough. But the fact you are doing something which SAVES YOURSELF. Means you are boasting of your work. WHich takes away from christ.



Lets see.

1. Your putting your faith in a man to immerse (baptise) you in water as a means of cleaning your sins,

2. as apposed to those placing their faith in the work of God (who happened to raise Jesus from the dead), who circumcised us with the circumcision done by the hand of God by immersing (baptize) you into the death and burial of CHRIST and in his BODY and in HIM,

and you can not see the difference?



See my last 2 points.

Either you trust God completely. And call out on him to saved you (salvation include cleansing) or you claim you have faith in God. Then turn to man to wash you

Why you can not see modern day baptism is being misapplied the same way OT circumcision was. I do nto know. Maybe you can answer this?

This is just going to turn into a "he said-she said" thing. I disagree with most of your conclusions. There is scriptural evidence that supports my belief, even taking all scriptures into account.

There are about 1800 years of believers being baptized, because they were taught correctly, that it is IMPORTANT/NECESSARY. You can try to draw lines here and there, and try to determine the exact moment of salvation, and call baptism a "work" all you want. Scripture says otherwise.

We are saved by grace, through our faith in, and acceptance of Jesus as our savior. We are also to be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins. That is scriptural.

None of that is optional... it is all a part of accepting the free gift of salvation. You can try to slice/dice it any way you want, but that is the scriptural way to do it.

 

[DJ2]

Nice try but that dog won't hunt.

I have the scripture to say that water is of no merit in salvation. The baptism that remits sin is the Holy Spirit baptism and only Christ is able to administer that baptism. John said it in chapter one verse thirty three.

Your teaching denies the sufficiency of grace because you make water necessary for the remission of sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Your dog is barking up the wrong tree.

You have no such scripture. What you have is esoteric knowledge. This is rather clear by your own words, "The baptism that remits sin is the Holy Spirit baptism". If you believe John 1:33 teaches this than I suggest you tone down the esoteric and get back to sola scriptura, if you ever were there.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is just going to turn into a "he said-she said" thing. I disagree with most of your conclusions. There is scriptural evidence that supports my belief, even taking all scriptures into account.

And I disagree with what you said. And there is ample scripture to supports my belief. Where we differ is how we interpret those passages.

There are about 1800 years of believers being baptized, because they were taught correctly, that it is IMPORTANT/NECESSARY. You can try to draw lines here and there, and try to determine the exact moment of salvation, and call baptism a "work" all you want. Scripture says otherwise.

Yeah and the pope is the direct successor to Peter. Mary died a virgin, The Eucharist is the actual flesh and blood of Christ. Sorry, Unless you think all of these things are true, You agree with me that history is not a very good judge of what doctrine is correct and what is not.

We are saved by grace, through our faith in, and acceptance of Jesus as our savior. We are also to be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins. That is scriptural.

You can not claim we are saved say faith, then say water baptism has a part of that salvation (remission of sin) scripture does not say this either. Our sins were redeemed by the cross. Not by water baptism.

None of that is optional... it is all a part of accepting the free gift of salvation. You can try to slice/dice it any way you want, but that is the scriptural way to do it.

Sadly, if this is true, again, No one was saved in the OT. Many NT people are lost (the thief on the cross and many others who had not heard they had to be baptised) and many people today who are unable to be baptised (my niece could not do it because of her health (she had a brain shunt and was nto aloud to be immersed in water)

Slice it or dice (using your own words) it however you want, thats what your declaring.

me? I will continue to trust that God washed me, He baptised me, And he redeemed me, not based on my actions, but based on his GRACE.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your dog is barking up the wrong tree.

You have no such scripture. What you have is esoteric knowledge. This is rather clear by your own words, "The baptism that remits sin is the Holy Spirit baptism". If you believe John 1:33 teaches this than I suggest you tone down the esoteric and get back to sola scriptura, if you ever were there.

lol. So God can not baptise us into his death burial and body. But your pastor can?

ok. Thanks, thats good to know you think your pastor has more power than the HS.

 

[DJ2]

lol. So God can not baptise us into his death burial and body. But your pastor can?

ok. Thanks, thats good to know you think your pastor has more power than the HS.

Yeah, that's what I have been saying, my pastor has more power than the Holy Spirit. You caught me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah, that's what I have been saying, my pastor has more power than the Holy Spirit. You caught me.

well you have been, there is no other way to interpret what you are saying. You may not like it. But that is the way it is.

If the HS had the power to baptise you into the death and burial and body of Christ. You would give God credit where credit is due, and Then you would not try to say it is done only by your pastor.