-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3: 5) Jesus' explanation of being born again is clear and direct. We need to be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. Those that believe the gospel and are baptized (in water in the name of Christ) shall be saved. (Mark 16: 15, 16) These people will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. We need both water and Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the propitiation for our sins; He did not die for us. (1 John 2: 2)
One of the reasons we are baptized in water in the name of Christ, by faith, is to obey Christ; when we do, we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1: 2) our conscience is cleansed from dead works (Heb. 9: 14); as our bodies are washed with pure water our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience. (Heb. 10: 22)
We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2: 38, 39); as He is metaphorically poured out upon us richly and abundantly (Titus 3: 6), we are immersed in the Spirit as was Cornelius and his household (Acts 10: 44-47; 11: 16) The Spirit is about life and renewal and receiving a new heart and mind.
As we come forth from this baptism experience (there is one baptism, but two elements) we are born of both the water and the Spirit. We are born again! Praise God!
God bless.
The Holy Spirit is not the propitiation for our sins; He did not die for us. (1 John 2: 2)
One of the reasons we are baptized in water in the name of Christ, by faith, is to obey Christ; when we do, we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1: 2) our conscience is cleansed from dead works (Heb. 9: 14); as our bodies are washed with pure water our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience. (Heb. 10: 22)
We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2: 38, 39); as He is metaphorically poured out upon us richly and abundantly (Titus 3: 6), we are immersed in the Spirit as was Cornelius and his household (Acts 10: 44-47; 11: 16) The Spirit is about life and renewal and receiving a new heart and mind.
As we come forth from this baptism experience (there is one baptism, but two elements) we are born of both the water and the Spirit. We are born again! Praise God!
God bless.
The ark saved Noah from the judgment that was upon the world. Water was the instrument of Gods judgment upon the world. Water was not saving but judging those lost in sin.
Water baptism cannot save it can only illustrate what the Holy Spirit has already wrought in the believer. If you are not saved and Holy Spirit filled before you enter the water you will only be a wet sinner when you exit the water.
Philip baptized the eunuch only after establishing his faith in Christ. Water baptism for a testimony not for salvation. To this day a Jew who trusts Christ is pursued to return to Judaism until he receives Christian baptism. From that point on they considered dead to the Jewish community and their family.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Water baptism cannot save it can only illustrate what the Holy Spirit has already wrought in the believer. If you are not saved and Holy Spirit filled before you enter the water you will only be a wet sinner when you exit the water.
Philip baptized the eunuch only after establishing his faith in Christ. Water baptism for a testimony not for salvation. To this day a Jew who trusts Christ is pursued to return to Judaism until he receives Christian baptism. From that point on they considered dead to the Jewish community and their family.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Again, you are directly contradicting what the text says. You say the water did not save but it judged. Peter said and I quote "eight souls were saved by water." I completely agree with you that the water was judgement for the sinners. But don't forget that the same water was salvation for Noah and his family. Tell me how an ark works without water?
Originally Posted by Jabberjaw
We do when we're baptized:
Romans 6:4 NKJV
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
That says we were baptized into death, Not into water.
You are right in that is says we were baptized into death. But you skipped over how we were baptized into death. He said we were buried with him through baptism into death. You can't skip out on the words that are written plain as day.
And of course he did not say "water" because anyone who reads it knows that's baptism is. We don't baptize people in kool-aid or oil or any other substance. We baptize in water. Jesus specifically said, John truly baptized with WATER. The bible says of Jesus, "When he was come up straightway out of the WATER..." Peter said "eight souls were saved by WATER." It's a no brainer. When God wanted to differentiate between the baptism of water and the baptism of spirit, he did so. (Acts 1:5, Mark 1:8)
Every place baptism is mentioned, it is understood that it is physical immersion in water that is being spoken of unless it is specified otherwise.
Romans 6:4 NKJV
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
That says we were baptized into death, Not into water.
And of course he did not say "water" because anyone who reads it knows that's baptism is. We don't baptize people in kool-aid or oil or any other substance. We baptize in water. Jesus specifically said, John truly baptized with WATER. The bible says of Jesus, "When he was come up straightway out of the WATER..." Peter said "eight souls were saved by WATER." It's a no brainer. When God wanted to differentiate between the baptism of water and the baptism of spirit, he did so. (Acts 1:5, Mark 1:8)
Every place baptism is mentioned, it is understood that it is physical immersion in water that is being spoken of unless it is specified otherwise.
S
John the Baptist baptized with water those who first believed.
Jesus came to John to be water baptized.
The church at Jerusalem baptized with water those who believed and the early churches continued to do so.
Water baptism plays no part in salvation, but is the first step in obedience.
One will never be in complete obedience to God without proper water baptism.
Jesus came to John to be water baptized.
The church at Jerusalem baptized with water those who believed and the early churches continued to do so.
Water baptism plays no part in salvation, but is the first step in obedience.
One will never be in complete obedience to God without proper water baptism.
E
Lol.. romans 6 says we were buried with him in baptism?
No, It says I was baptised into his death.
as for col 2. I already proves it was spiritual baptism. It is a baptism without hands. What part of that do you find so hard to comprehend?
And no, It is not understood. The word baptizo has nothign to do with water, it is a verb.
God did not say you were “baptised in water” into his death, how rediculous does that sound?
God through paul said you were baptised into his death. No water involved.
No, It says I was baptised into his death.
as for col 2. I already proves it was spiritual baptism. It is a baptism without hands. What part of that do you find so hard to comprehend?
And no, It is not understood. The word baptizo has nothign to do with water, it is a verb.
God did not say you were “baptised in water” into his death, how rediculous does that sound?
God through paul said you were baptised into his death. No water involved.
My theology? I would say you know next to nothing about my theology.
The baptism that saves is of the Holy Spirit of God. Physical water does not save. Drinking of Christ causes rivers of living waters to flow forth from us. Do you take that literally?
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Rev 7:16-17
The baptism that saves is of the Holy Spirit of God. Physical water does not save. Drinking of Christ causes rivers of living waters to flow forth from us. Do you take that literally?
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of
his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” John 7:38
his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” John 7:38
Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” John 4:13b-14
And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment." Rev 21:6
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say,“Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. Rev 22:17
With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation. Isa 12:3
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb Rev 22:1
On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. John 7:37-39a
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Rev 7:16-17
Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” John 4:10
[QUOTE
The fact Peter told all people to repent, and if they did they would receive the gift of the HS. It is an easy flow to understand, that the people (singular) he told to be baptised already had the gift of the HS, meaning they had already received remission of sin.][/QUOTE]
So then what about those in Acts 8:12-19 And Acts 19:1-4 who had not received the Holy Ghost yet but they had been baptized. Are you saying their baptism was no good because they did it before they got the Holy Ghost?
I didn't take it out of context, you just proved my point. Baptism is symbolic of old testament circumcision. When we go down in the water, a supernatural experience takes place. God circumcises or removes our sins from us. It is not the hands of the one who baptizes us that performs this, but the working of God. This is why Peter said in 1 Peter 3 that it is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh. They physical water does not wash away your sins. But that does not remove you from the responsibility of obeying the command to be baptized, because it is when you obey this command that God peforms the circumcision of your heart. You claim that this can be done without baptism, yet you emphasized the beginning of verse 12 where Paul tells us where this circumcision takes place: Buried with him in baptism.
I agree that physical circumcision did not take away the sins of those that had it done. So let me ask you a question: What happened to those that decided they were not going to be circumcised because they understood that the physical act of circumcision could not take away their sins? The bible tells us exactly what happened to them:
[h=3]Genesis 17:14 (KJV)[/h]And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
He didn't leave it out! And that, my friend, is why John 3:5 comes before John 3:16! You have simply chosen to skip over it and go straight to verse 16. But Nicodemus got the whole conversation. So when Jesus said whosoever believes on me should not perish but have everlasting life, Nicodemus knew that someone who truly believed Jesus' words would obey Jesus' words from John 3:5.
The fact Peter told all people to repent, and if they did they would receive the gift of the HS. It is an easy flow to understand, that the people (singular) he told to be baptised already had the gift of the HS, meaning they had already received remission of sin.][/QUOTE]
So then what about those in Acts 8:12-19 And Acts 19:1-4 who had not received the Holy Ghost yet but they had been baptized. Are you saying their baptism was no good because they did it before they got the Holy Ghost?
I didn't take it out of context, you just proved my point. Baptism is symbolic of old testament circumcision. When we go down in the water, a supernatural experience takes place. God circumcises or removes our sins from us. It is not the hands of the one who baptizes us that performs this, but the working of God. This is why Peter said in 1 Peter 3 that it is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh. They physical water does not wash away your sins. But that does not remove you from the responsibility of obeying the command to be baptized, because it is when you obey this command that God peforms the circumcision of your heart. You claim that this can be done without baptism, yet you emphasized the beginning of verse 12 where Paul tells us where this circumcision takes place: Buried with him in baptism.
I agree that physical circumcision did not take away the sins of those that had it done. So let me ask you a question: What happened to those that decided they were not going to be circumcised because they understood that the physical act of circumcision could not take away their sins? The bible tells us exactly what happened to them:
[h=3]Genesis 17:14 (KJV)[/h]And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
He didn't leave it out! And that, my friend, is why John 3:5 comes before John 3:16! You have simply chosen to skip over it and go straight to verse 16. But Nicodemus got the whole conversation. So when Jesus said whosoever believes on me should not perish but have everlasting life, Nicodemus knew that someone who truly believed Jesus' words would obey Jesus' words from John 3:5.
In that case, it is not me you are refuting, it is scripture. It's right there in black and white:
Romans 6:3-4
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:3-4
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Saved from the corruption of the world. This had nothing to do with the righteousness of Noah and his family other than they were not engaged in the sin of the world around them.
Since you do not literally die in water baptism we know it is figurative of His death and not our death. The life giving baptism s Holy Spirit baptism which only Christ can administer and it is an eternal baptism through which we are sealed by God unto eternal life. Water cannot possibly accomplish that baptism. John revealed that early in the gospel.
You need to get out of Roman Catholic doctrine. It is the Spirit that give life. The rudiments of this world cannot redeem the soul.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Since you do not literally die in water baptism we know it is figurative of His death and not our death. The life giving baptism s Holy Spirit baptism which only Christ can administer and it is an eternal baptism through which we are sealed by God unto eternal life. Water cannot possibly accomplish that baptism. John revealed that early in the gospel.
You need to get out of Roman Catholic doctrine. It is the Spirit that give life. The rudiments of this world cannot redeem the soul.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
E
You still skipped the most important part.
Romans 6:3-4
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
What is beibg buried into his death mean?
2. It means being BAPTISED INTO CHRIST (not water)
2. It means being baptized INTO HIS DEATH (not water)
What it is is spirit baptism, baptism by the hands of God, being baptised by the Holy Spirit. Who raised Jesus from the dead.
Not water
Amen! Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved through water" (1 Peter 3:20 - NASB) as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household).
*NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.
*NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.
If you believe that Jesus would not have left out baptism if it was "important", then why do you think he specifically told the disciples to go and make disciples of all the world, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit? The very last (most important?) thing he told his disciples?
Peter really means we are not saved by baptism but he writes:
Peter really means we should be baptized to show we have already had our sins forgiven and have already received the gift of the Holy Spirit but he writes:
Will you ever have the courage to just take a peek behind your faith alone regeneration theology? Just a peek?
Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience," through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).
We could paraphrase Peter's statement by saying, "Baptism now saves you--not the outward physical ceremony of baptism but the inward spiritual reality which baptism represents." By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.
*BTY 1 Peter 3:20 does not teach that Noah and his family were literally saved "by" the water (See Hebrews 11:7), but were saved "through" water -- brought safely through the water (ASV; NIV; NKJV: NASB; ESV).
*See Acts 10:43 - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM) Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
I've done more than take a peek. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and was beat over the head with the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration for years. *Once you come to believe in the name of the Son of God and know that you have eternal life (1 John 5:13) there is no more peeking or second guessing whether or not Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works (Romans 3:24-28; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. Will you ever have the courage to just take a peek behind your "water and works" regeneration theology? Just a peek?
We could paraphrase Peter's statement by saying, "Baptism now saves you--not the outward physical ceremony of baptism but the inward spiritual reality which baptism represents." By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.
*BTY 1 Peter 3:20 does not teach that Noah and his family were literally saved "by" the water (See Hebrews 11:7), but were saved "through" water -- brought safely through the water (ASV; NIV; NKJV: NASB; ESV).
*See Acts 10:43 - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM) Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
I've done more than take a peek. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and was beat over the head with the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration for years. *Once you come to believe in the name of the Son of God and know that you have eternal life (1 John 5:13) there is no more peeking or second guessing whether or not Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works (Romans 3:24-28; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. Will you ever have the courage to just take a peek behind your "water and works" regeneration theology? Just a peek?
7
Yes I am Apostolic. I am old time Pentecost, not the new school ones. 
I agree with you that the blood of Jesus Christ is what cleanses us from sin. So tell me please, how does one get the blood of Jesus Christ applied to their lives. And please give scripture to support your claim. Surely you do not believe that the moment Jesus died on the cross, the blood was applied to everyone's life? Because that would mean everyone is already saved.
I also believe that baptism is a visible profession of your faith, but I do not believe that's ALL that baptism is. I have given plenty of scripture in my previous post to show that baptism is so much more than that.
I agree with you that the blood of Jesus Christ is what cleanses us from sin. So tell me please, how does one get the blood of Jesus Christ applied to their lives. And please give scripture to support your claim. Surely you do not believe that the moment Jesus died on the cross, the blood was applied to everyone's life? Because that would mean everyone is already saved.
I also believe that baptism is a visible profession of your faith, but I do not believe that's ALL that baptism is. I have given plenty of scripture in my previous post to show that baptism is so much more than that.
well all I have is my Bible...it says nothing about old time anything, but Jesus did talk about new wine skins...I might fit into that category
don't you know how we receive forgiveness of sins?
no one is going to try and put my back against a wall with 20 questions as though I am being interrogated
as far as plenty of scripture goes, there are probably as many views on what you gave as their are people reading them
interpretation will render a person believing baptism is part of salvation...do a study on baptism and why John the Baptist was in the river Jordan and why Jesus had Himself baptized...did Jesus sin? nope...so why did He need baptism?
since you think you are presenting scripture to indicate baptism is a part of salvation, I think the onus is on you to prove it...but I would be curious to know why you think Jesus, the sinless Son of God, went to John to be baptized...if you wrote that somewhere else, just repost please...because I joined the discussion late and I really do not have time, nor do I want, to read the entire thread
thanks
ps...I am not Pentecostal...new, old or something in between...but I am not a cessationist