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Regardless if the thief on the cross was baptized or not the promise given by Jesus was given to the thief not us. We cannot claim the thief's promise any more then we can claim the promises given to David, Abraham, Solomon, Sarah, Gideon, Agabus, Hanna etc. The debate on if the thief on the cross was baptized has raged on for years and the Bible does not offer a verse to settle the issue. If Jesus wanted to promise Pontius Pilate a place in Paradise who are we to say no.
The promise presented to all, both now and later, both near and far is:
The promise presented to all, both now and later, both near and far is:
You cannot boil down the gospel to a bumper sticker. Especially one that even you must qualify to be accepted.
Calling a doctrine heretical is pointless, every doctrine has been labeled heretical at one time or by some group. Faith alone regeneration theology is no exception.
Another bumper sticker that even you don't accept as written. Simply an abstraction without a cause.
Calling a doctrine heretical is pointless, every doctrine has been labeled heretical at one time or by some group. Faith alone regeneration theology is no exception.
Another bumper sticker that even you don't accept as written. Simply an abstraction without a cause.
LOL
Jude 1:8 ¶ Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Jude 1:8 ¶ Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
If Jesus Christ took our sins upon himself and suffered and died for us, can it also be true that he fulfilled all righteousness for us as well?
When Jesus went to John to be baptized by him, John balked and told Jesus that it was more fitting that he should be the one to be baptized by him.
"Matt. 3:14-15 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him."
To "fulfil all righteousness" means to do all that is written in the Holy Word.
It was necessary for the priest to wash before he offered a sacrifice. It was necessary to wash the sacrifice before being offered. Washing now baptizing is symbolic of being cleansed from our filthiness or sin.
"Prov. 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness."
Paul argued that it was not necessary to be circumcised because the LORD was circumcised for all men.
"Col. 2:10-12 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
If our LORD'S circumcision was the circumcision for all men, couldn't his baptism also be the baptism for all men? If he fulfilled all righteousness, isn't he our righteousness by faith? Do we have to do the works that our LORD already did?
I do think that those who believe it is necessary to be baptized, should be; but I don't consider it necessary for salvation.
"Rom. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision."
This is saying that circumcision can't save you if you live in sin and neither can baptism.
When Jesus went to John to be baptized by him, John balked and told Jesus that it was more fitting that he should be the one to be baptized by him.
"Matt. 3:14-15 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him."
To "fulfil all righteousness" means to do all that is written in the Holy Word.
It was necessary for the priest to wash before he offered a sacrifice. It was necessary to wash the sacrifice before being offered. Washing now baptizing is symbolic of being cleansed from our filthiness or sin.
"Prov. 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness."
Paul argued that it was not necessary to be circumcised because the LORD was circumcised for all men.
"Col. 2:10-12 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
If our LORD'S circumcision was the circumcision for all men, couldn't his baptism also be the baptism for all men? If he fulfilled all righteousness, isn't he our righteousness by faith? Do we have to do the works that our LORD already did?
I do think that those who believe it is necessary to be baptized, should be; but I don't consider it necessary for salvation.
"Rom. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision."
This is saying that circumcision can't save you if you live in sin and neither can baptism.
LOL
LOL
You really cannot grasp the simplicity of the gospel. Grace saves received through faith received through the word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit.
One gets to grace by faith as taught in the word of God. Grace cannot be earned, or attained by mans effort. Grace is wholly sufficient to save and wholly unmerited on our part. The only this man merits is condemnation which he is already under because of sin.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
LOL
You really cannot grasp the simplicity of the gospel. Grace saves received through faith received through the word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit.
One gets to grace by faith as taught in the word of God. Grace cannot be earned, or attained by mans effort. Grace is wholly sufficient to save and wholly unmerited on our part. The only this man merits is condemnation which he is already under because of sin.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
This is a poor analogy for "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved". Can you not see this?
In Mark 16:16 the subjects "believes" and "baptized" are distinct. Your "takes his medication" and "washes it down with water" are saying the same thing.
Take you medication and wash it down with water?? This is your analogy?? Do you talk this way?
My analogy is proper its subjects are distinct. You are simply putting two similar ideas together and presenting one as redundant. This is a bogus analogy, one invented out of desperation. Again, using my proper analogy please answer the following questions:
In Mark 16:16 the subjects "believes" and "baptized" are distinct. Your "takes his medication" and "washes it down with water" are saying the same thing.
Take you medication and wash it down with water?? This is your analogy?? Do you talk this way?
My analogy is proper its subjects are distinct. You are simply putting two similar ideas together and presenting one as redundant. This is a bogus analogy, one invented out of desperation. Again, using my proper analogy please answer the following questions:
*CONTEXT. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
So "faith only" here = empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not genuine faith, which is alive in Christ and not dead and is evidenced by works (Ephesians 2:5-10). Abraham was "justified by works" -- "shown to be righteous" (James 2:21) but was "accounted as righteous" through faith, apart from works (Romans 4:2-3).
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:2-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
Now go back and read post #675. Faith (rightly understood) in Christ "alone" (faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation) is not to be confused with empty profession of faith/dead faith that "remains alone" - "barren of works."
So "faith only" here = empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not genuine faith, which is alive in Christ and not dead and is evidenced by works (Ephesians 2:5-10). Abraham was "justified by works" -- "shown to be righteous" (James 2:21) but was "accounted as righteous" through faith, apart from works (Romans 4:2-3).
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:2-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
Now go back and read post #675. Faith (rightly understood) in Christ "alone" (faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation) is not to be confused with empty profession of faith/dead faith that "remains alone" - "barren of works."
What are they lying about?
Straw man argument.
So you agree that faith alone in Christ saves us. Amen! Of course this belief in Jesus leads us to follow Him in a walk of discipleship and produce good works, which is the fruit of faith. Genuine believers do not abandon faith and salvation.
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).
To BELIEVE the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation.
Straw man argument.
So you agree that faith alone in Christ saves us. Amen! Of course this belief in Jesus leads us to follow Him in a walk of discipleship and produce good works, which is the fruit of faith. Genuine believers do not abandon faith and salvation.
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).
To BELIEVE the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation.
I see it. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they will be saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, such as, "He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned" or "He who is not baptized will be condemned." *But, of course, neither of those statements are found in the verse.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Can you not see this?
Yes they are and there is a "distinction" between believing AND getting baptized "afterwards" and you can believe and not yet be water baptized.
No, there is also a "distinction" between taking medication AND washing it down with water. One who takes his medication dry without washing it down with water still took his medication, which is what makes you well and not the water.
The analogy makes perfect sense, but you insist on continuing to fight against the truth because you are determined to accommodate your biased church doctrine at all costs.
You are the master of IRONY.
This is not a proper analogy so answering the question is irrelevant. There is no need for shady lawyer tactics and this is not a silly game of battle of the intellects. The Bible is not simply a text book that we rely solely on human intelligence to understand. In 1 Corinthians 2:14, we read - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You seem to base understanding God's word solely on human intelligence and deny an accompanying work of the Holy Spirit. Yet scripture says, “For our gospel came not unto you in word only but also in power and in the Holy Spirit.." - 1 Thessalonians 1:5.
"Lydia...whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul" - Acts 16:14.
If there is no additional work, or influence, of the Holy Spirit, then this last verse, which says the Lord "opened her heart," is superfluous. While the word is the means of communicating that which is to be believed, the additional unseen work of the Holy Spirit is also necessary. Paul referred to his preaching as being "in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (1 Corinthians 2:4). This explains why the preaching of those who teach salvation by works is dead and relies so heavily upon faulty human logic and legalism.
*So there is more to coming to saving faith in Christ/believing the gospel than merely paper, ink and human intelligence.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Can you not see this?
Yes they are and there is a "distinction" between believing AND getting baptized "afterwards" and you can believe and not yet be water baptized.
No, there is also a "distinction" between taking medication AND washing it down with water. One who takes his medication dry without washing it down with water still took his medication, which is what makes you well and not the water.
The analogy makes perfect sense, but you insist on continuing to fight against the truth because you are determined to accommodate your biased church doctrine at all costs.
You are the master of IRONY.
This is not a proper analogy so answering the question is irrelevant. There is no need for shady lawyer tactics and this is not a silly game of battle of the intellects. The Bible is not simply a text book that we rely solely on human intelligence to understand. In 1 Corinthians 2:14, we read - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You seem to base understanding God's word solely on human intelligence and deny an accompanying work of the Holy Spirit. Yet scripture says, “For our gospel came not unto you in word only but also in power and in the Holy Spirit.." - 1 Thessalonians 1:5.
"Lydia...whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul" - Acts 16:14.
If there is no additional work, or influence, of the Holy Spirit, then this last verse, which says the Lord "opened her heart," is superfluous. While the word is the means of communicating that which is to be believed, the additional unseen work of the Holy Spirit is also necessary. Paul referred to his preaching as being "in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (1 Corinthians 2:4). This explains why the preaching of those who teach salvation by works is dead and relies so heavily upon faulty human logic and legalism.
*So there is more to coming to saving faith in Christ/believing the gospel than merely paper, ink and human intelligence.
I did not say faith/works for salvation. We are not saved by faith and works. Works are produced from faith and salvation. They are not the means of our salvation. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all (says-claims to have faith but has no works) (given time to produce them) demonstrates there is no root.
Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation (Paul - Ephesians 2:8,9) -- "saved through faith, not works" is not the same message of "faith only" (James - James 2:24) which is an empty profession of faith that remains "alone" -- "barren of works." Works-salvationists are unable to grasp this truth.
Luke 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." (obviously, this was not a bare profession of faith, because Jesus said) 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
The thief on the cross had a change of heart in his final moments and placed his faith in Jesus for salvation and was saved. Now how many good works was the thief supposed to accomplish on the cross in those final moments before his death? His rebuke of the other thief and confession of faith in Jesus was sufficient enough to confirm his faith and demonstrate that it was not a bare profession of faith.
Not at all. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:2-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
Your theology wants salvation by works.
Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation (Paul - Ephesians 2:8,9) -- "saved through faith, not works" is not the same message of "faith only" (James - James 2:24) which is an empty profession of faith that remains "alone" -- "barren of works." Works-salvationists are unable to grasp this truth.
Luke 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." (obviously, this was not a bare profession of faith, because Jesus said) 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
The thief on the cross had a change of heart in his final moments and placed his faith in Jesus for salvation and was saved. Now how many good works was the thief supposed to accomplish on the cross in those final moments before his death? His rebuke of the other thief and confession of faith in Jesus was sufficient enough to confirm his faith and demonstrate that it was not a bare profession of faith.
Not at all. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:2-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
Your theology wants salvation by works.
Again, is this some kind of composition or logic rule?
"With proper postage and a readable address your letter will be delivered but if no postage is applied the letter will not be delivered."
Do you need add a "qualification for unusual cases" of having the proper postage without a readable address? Can you truly not see how bogus is your defense.
Let me guess. You would rephrase the analogy as:
"With proper postage and licking the stamp your letter will be delivered but without proper postage it will not be delivered."
After all you can always "dry" tape the stamp down.
This is the old stand by excuse for those in the corner. "You just don't understand because you don't have the spirit like me." This defense is never mentioned at the beginning of a discussion but always at the end. Esoteric knowledge is the basis of most false doctrines, faith alone regeneration theology is no different.
You rail against the Church of Christ but I have never seen them resort to such a defense. They simply follow the example of the Bereans. Your self judgement that you are spirit led and I am not is a sign of a haughty spirit, I suggest you read Proverbs 16:18. Just because I don't agree with your doctrine does not mean I am void of the Spirit of God.
"With proper postage and a readable address your letter will be delivered but if no postage is applied the letter will not be delivered."
Do you need add a "qualification for unusual cases" of having the proper postage without a readable address? Can you truly not see how bogus is your defense.
Let me guess. You would rephrase the analogy as:
"With proper postage and licking the stamp your letter will be delivered but without proper postage it will not be delivered."
After all you can always "dry" tape the stamp down.
This is the old stand by excuse for those in the corner. "You just don't understand because you don't have the spirit like me." This defense is never mentioned at the beginning of a discussion but always at the end. Esoteric knowledge is the basis of most false doctrines, faith alone regeneration theology is no different.
You rail against the Church of Christ but I have never seen them resort to such a defense. They simply follow the example of the Bereans. Your self judgement that you are spirit led and I am not is a sign of a haughty spirit, I suggest you read Proverbs 16:18. Just because I don't agree with your doctrine does not mean I am void of the Spirit of God.