Baptism

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#1
Most people see the word Baptize and automaticall assume water must be involved. or that it is the thing which causes people to speak in tongues.

In order to understand what baptize means, we must go to the gree, for the word is not native to the english language, in fact before the english translators transliterated the word (why I have no clue) it was not even a word.

Here is a snippet which I hope helps us understand the true meaning of the word, its origins, its usage, and its meaning


Baptise, baptism, these two words are not native to the english language, therefore do not have any intrinsic meaning of their own. The only rightfull meaning they can have is the one derived from the greek word of which they are the spelling. The verb is spelled Baptizo, from which a slight change in spelling we get our worde baptize, the noun is baptisma, and taking off the last letter we have baptism.
we will study these words first in their classic usage. The word baptizo is related to another greek word bapto. the latter meant to dip, dip under. it was used of the smith tempering the red hot steel. it was also used of the sense of to dip in die, to colour or steep. it was used in the act of dieing the hair, and of glazing earthen vessels. it was used as a proverb in the sense of "steeping someone in crimson". that is giving him a bloddy caxcomb. It meant also to fill by dipping in, to draw. It was used of a ship that dipped, that is sank. Baptiso the related word meant to dip repeatedly. it was used of the act of sinking ships. it meant also to bathe. it was used in the phrase soaked in wine. where the word soaked, is the meaning of baptizo. it is found in the phrase overhead and ears in debt, where the word overhead and ears, are the graphic nature of what the word meant. the word here therefor means completely submerged. our present day english equivilent would be sunk. A baptes is one who dips or dyes. a baptisis is a dipping, bathing, a washing, a drawing of water. A baptisma is that which is dipped, a baptisteron is a bathing place, a baptistes is one that dips, a dyer, baptos means dipped, dyed. bright colored, drawn like water.
Baptizo is used in the 9th book of the odyssey, where the hissing of the burning eye of the cyclops is compaired to the sound of water where the smith dips ( baptizo) a piece of iron, tempering it. , in the battle of frogs and mice, it is said that a mouse thrust a frog with a reed, and the frogged leaped over the water, dying ( baptizo ) the weater with blood. Euripides uses the word as a ship which goes down in the water and does not come back to the surface. Lucian dreams that he has seen a huge bird shot with a mighty arrow, and as it flies high in the air, it dies ( baptizo) the earth with his blood. in Xenophon's Anabasis, we have the instance where the Greek soldiers placed ( baptizo) the points of their spears in a bowl of blood.
We come now to the usage of these words in the koine greek, giving examples from the papyri, the LXX, and the new testament.
In secular documents of the koine period, moulton and Milligan report the following uses of baptise.. A submerged boat, ceremonial ablusions, a person flooded or overwhelmed in calamities. they say that the word was used in its metaphorical sense even amoung the uneducated of people. . A biblical example of this is found in our Lords speaking of his passion as a baptism ( matt 10: 38), these scholars report the use of bapto as referring to fullers and dyers. the word is used of colored garments, and of wool to be dyed. the word baptisma is found in a question regaurding a new baptism someone is reported to be preaching. This use of the noun is peculiar to the N.T. and to ecclesiastical writers.
In the LXX we have in leviticus 4: 6 the words, and the priest shall dip ( bapto) his finger in the blood, and sprinkle (prosraino) of the blood seven times before the Lord. Here the word Bapto is found juxtaposition to prostriano, a verb closely allied with prozrantizo, baptiso meaning to dip, the latter verb to sprinkle
In the NT we have the rich man asking that lazerus dip ( bapto) his finger in water and cool his tongue. ( luke 16: 24 ). In Heb 9: 10, Baptisma is translated washings and refers to the ceremonial ablusions of Judaism. In Mark 7: 4 Baptisma is used of the ceremonial washings of cups, pots, brazen vessels and tables, Baptisma is used in Matt 3: 7 and baptizo in matt 3: 16 and 1 cor 14 of the rite of water baptism. In Mark 10: 38 our Lord speaks of his sufferings on the cross as the baptisma with which he is to be baptizo.
In these examples we see various uses of the words bapto and baptizo we discover three distinct usages, a mechanical, a ceremonial and a metaphoricle one.
The mechanical usage can be illustrated by the action of the smith dipping the hot iron in water, tempering it, or the dyer dipping the cloth in the dye for the purpose of dying it. these instances of the use of our greek word, give us the following defenition of the word in its mechanical usage. the word refers to the introduction or placing of a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else, as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition. While the word, we found, had other uses, yet the one that predominated above the others was the mechanical one. Observe how perfectly the meaning is in accord with the usage of the word in rom 6: 3- 4. where the believing sinner is baptized into vital union with Jesus Christ. The believing sinner is introduced or placed in Christ, thus comming into union with him. By that action, he ius taken out of his old environment and condition in which he had lived, the first adam, and is placed into a new environment and condition, the last Adam. By this action his condition is changed from that of a lost sinner with a totally depraved nature to that of a saint with a devine nature. His relationship to the law of God is changed from that of a guilty sinner to that of a justified saint. All this is accomplish with the act of the Holy Spirit introducing, or placing us into vital union with Jesus Christ. No ceremony of water baptism ever did that! The entire context is supernatural in its character. The greek word here should not be transliterated but translated. The translation should read; " as many were introduced (placed ) into Christ jesus, into his death were introduced. therefore we were buried with him through the aformentioned introduction into his death. The same holds true for 1 cor 12: 13; which should be translated " for through the instrumentality of one spirit, we were all placed into one body." It is because we so often associate the english word "baptism" with the rite of water baptism, that we read that ceremony into Romans 6. A student is one of the writer's greek classes who is a greek himself, who learned to speak that language as his mother tongue and studied it in the schools of greece, stated during a class discussion that the greek reader would react to the Greek Text of Romans abd the word baptizo as the writer has.
 
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Slepsog4

Guest
#2
baptizo, baptisma, bapto, etc. are not bland or generic "introduction, or instrument" you are trying to rewrite the text to continue your disobedience it sounds to me.

Make sure you are studying Koine Greek to understand the New Testament.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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#3
Baptize means to be immersed, there are three biblically known baptism.

Water
Holy Spirit
Fire
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#4
baptizo, baptisma, bapto, etc. are not bland or generic "introduction, or instrument" you are trying to rewrite the text to continue your disobedience it sounds to me.

Make sure you are studying Koine Greek to understand the New Testament.
where do you think that came from??

We interpret the words as the original readers would have using their language. Not in any way just to make our belief believable
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#5
Baptize means to be immersed, there are three biblically known baptism.

Water
Holy Spirit
Fire

You forgot the baptism into moses.

also the baptism into the death and bural of Christ. and his body.

And how about the baptism into Christ??

God baptized the children of Isreal into moses.

who baptizes us into the death, burial body of Christ? And into Christ himself
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#6
there is only one baptism that truly matters:

Ephesians 4:4-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#7
Mark 16:16
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
1 Peter 3:21
(21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 
Feb 17, 2010
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#8
Try this baptism... WE know Jesus was the Word of God that was made flesh...So Jesus was the example of what happens if the WORD OF GOD LIVES.
Now!!! God gave us His Word, and let us for this purpose not beat around ...HIS WORD IS OUR BIBLE, I find the King James and the Afrikaans Old translation to be without any fault!!!
Now! When I read the Bible and know NOTHING of God, I have never even heard the Words "Jesus Chrsit"...I read the book as a book and not the Word of God... The first thing I will realize, is that this book was not written by a monkey.... This is the first book that makes complete sence. It appears to have a LOT of contradictions, but the more i read the book the BETTER this Man Jesus Christ seem to be...So now this book talks about different baptisms. There was this man John that baptized with water... And he stands in the water, preaching, and says there will come another man that will baptize with Fire and Spirit! And then in Eph 4 this book says ONE BAPTISM... AH!!!! So can there be a water/ fire and Spirit baptism at once?

Is there a fire that is not really fire as we know it, and water that is not water as we know it, but spirit is spirit and that is LIFE!! Ok so let us see what the ONE baptism is..
The water baptism... Jesus asked a Samaratan woman for water, and He says to her... HEY, If you knew who asked you for water now, you would have asked Him for water, and NEVER THIRST AGAIN... (Everlasting thirst quensher) It is TRUTH! If we are filled with TRUTH we will NEVER thirst again! And Jesus says in John 17:17... Father Thou Word is Truth... Now the Fire... Well God says He has Gold PROVEN WITH FIRE... Again we know God's Word is PROVEN TRUTH!!!! So now we see the Word is water, and it is like gold proven with fire... As I read the Word and more and more of the Word remains in my heart, I begin to speak more of the Word and I begin to live more what I speak.. The Word starts to become my LIFE... The Word starts to change me to the LIVING WORD...Jesus! And if i went right through the WORD and believe ALL the Word, God says it will flood me so that my mouth runneth over of what is in my heart... If my heart is filled with WORD and I Do and speak what is in my heart, then I am filled with Word..Truth...
Jesus said rivers of living waters will flow from us... AHA! Living waters....That means the water is ALIVE... But I was baptized in Jesus' DEATH..
So easy... I died in the Word, and the Word came alive in me...I died in Jesus, and Jesus came alive in me...ONE BAPTISM...I die in the fire, so that only the WORD IN ME CAN STAND THE FIRE...I am die and the WORD REMAIN, and the Word is a tiver of living waters that takes over my WHOLE BEING... When I am baptized by the water of the Word, I go in the water, God submerge me in the Word, and ALL FALSE DIE IN THE FIRE THAT PROOF THE WORD, So all false of me die... And only Jesus is the LIFE in me now... When i come OUT OF THE WATER, ONLY JESUS LIVES IN ME!
One baptism... So Get into the Word of God. You go in Jesus comes out...One baptism.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#9
Mark 16:16
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


This passage is rejected by many, It is not found in most old manuscripts. Also of note which supports this theory is the fact that imediately after this. Jesus supposedly makes a statement that all who are saved will be known by the fact they can drink poison and live, And be bitten by a poisonous snake and live. I challenge any christian to test this fact by drinking poison or allowing yourself to be bitten by a snake. And see of Jesus prophesy comes true and you live. If you don't, Jesus lied. Of course he did not. because he did not make such a statement. Nor did he say baptism is a requirement for salvation.


1 Peter 3:21

(21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


Like figure. what is this a like figure of? The flood, where 8 people were saved from Gods wrath by the ark. The water (which was Gods judgment on mankind for sin) was used to life Noah and his family and take them out of God's judgment.

The baptism of water also is a like figure of that which truely saves us. The baptism of the HS. For you see, water does not remove filth of the flesh (sin from the soul) . But is the response of a good conscious to those ho love Christ (have already been saved) Peter is not saying water saves. he is saying water is a figure of that which saves us. Like the water of noah was a figure of how God will save us from his eternal wrath.

Scripture says we are washed not by baptism. but by this.

1. Jesus said we are clean (washed) by the words Christ spoke (completly clean)
2. Paul says we are cleansed by the washing of water by the word (the word is what makes us clean)
3. In titus Paul tells us it is through the washing of regeneration of the HS we are cleansed (this is HS baptism)
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#10
This passage is rejected by many, It is not found in most old manuscripts. Also of note which supports this theory is the fact that imediately after this. Jesus supposedly makes a statement that all who are saved will be known by the fact they can drink poison and live, And be bitten by a poisonous snake and live. I challenge any christian to test this fact by drinking poison or allowing yourself to be bitten by a snake. And see of Jesus prophesy comes true and you live. If you don't, Jesus lied. Of course he did not. because he did not make such a statement. Nor did he say baptism is a requirement for salvation.

[/size]



  1. Mark 16:8 NU-Text and M-Text omit quickly.
  2. Mark 16:18 NU-Text reads and in their hands they will.
  3. Mark 16:20 Verses 9–20 are bracketed in NU-Text as not original. They are lacking in Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, although nearly all other manuscripts of Mark contain them.
This is a footnote in the New King James Version, they are lacking in the Catholic versions of the Bible. The King James is not translated from these 2 sources.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#11
This passage is rejected by many, It is not found in most old manuscripts. Also of note which supports this theory is the fact that imediately after this. Jesus supposedly makes a statement that all who are saved will be known by the fact they can drink poison and live, And be bitten by a poisonous snake and live. I challenge any christian to test this fact by drinking poison or allowing yourself to be bitten by a snake. And see of Jesus prophesy comes true and you live. If you don't, Jesus lied. Of course he did not. because he did not make such a statement. Nor did he say baptism is a requirement for salvation.

[/size]



  1. Mark 16:8 NU-Text and M-Text omit quickly.
  2. Mark 16:18 NU-Text reads and in their hands they will.
  3. Mark 16:20 Verses 9–20 are bracketed in NU-Text as not original. They are lacking in Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, although nearly all other manuscripts of Mark contain them.
This is a footnote in the New King James Version, they are lacking in the Catholic versions of the Bible. The King James is not translated from these 2 sources.


I know this. But it does not mean it should be included.

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And
these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[b] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Do you believe? If you do, these are signs (according to Christ) that you will have to show you are one who follows Christ.

I used my proof which would negate these passages. Maybe you are willing to be bitten by a snake or drink poison to see if Jesus was correct? and maybe prove you are a true follower of Christ?
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#12
I know this. But it does not mean it should be included.

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And
these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[b] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Do you believe? If you do, these are signs (according to Christ) that you will have to show you are one who follows Christ.

I used my proof which would negate these passages. Maybe you are willing to be bitten by a snake or drink poison to see if Jesus was correct? and maybe prove you are a true follower of Christ?
Have you considered that the source from which the KJV is translated which is older than the catholic sources may have this included?

Acts 28:3-6
(3) And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
(4) And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
(5) And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
(6) Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#13
I know this. But it does not mean it should be included.

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And
these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[b] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Do you believe? If you do, these are signs (according to Christ) that you will have to show you are one who follows Christ.

I used my proof which would negate these passages. Maybe you are willing to be bitten by a snake or drink poison to see if Jesus was correct? and maybe prove you are a true follower of Christ?

1 Corinthians 12:11
(11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

It is up to the Holy Spirit as to when these things happen,

Luke 10:19
(19) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

2 Kings 4:39-41
(39) And one went out into the field to gather herbs, and found a wild vine, and gathered thereof wild gourds his lap full, and came and shred them into the pot of pottage: for they knew them not.
(40) So they poured out for the men to eat. And it came to pass, as they were eating of the pottage, that they cried out, and said, O thou man of God, there is death in the pot. And they could not eat thereof.
(41) But he said, Then bring meal. And he cast it into the pot; and he said, Pour out for the people, that they may eat. And there was no harm in the pot.

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#14
Have you considered that the source from which the KJV is translated which is older than the catholic sources may have this included?

Acts 28:3-6
(3) And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
(4) And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
(5) And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
(6) Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
what? serious? you mean that's referring to this?:rolleyes:

Mark 16:18
they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

that would mean Jesus is telling everybody what His Chosen Apostles and firstfruits would do...kinda like this:

Acts 13
Barnabas and Saul Sent Off
1Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger,a Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a member of the court of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.

Barnabas and Saul on Cyprus
4So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them. 6When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus. 7He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.

9But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? 11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and unable to see the sun for a time.” Immediately mist and darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking people to lead him by the hand.


(how cool is that?:D)

2Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#15
1 Corinthians 12:11
(11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

It is up to the Holy Spirit as to when these things happen,

Luke 10:19
(19) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

2 Kings 4:39-41
(39) And one went out into the field to gather herbs, and found a wild vine, and gathered thereof wild gourds his lap full, and came and shred them into the pot of pottage: for they knew them not.
(40) So they poured out for the men to eat. And it came to pass, as they were eating of the pottage, that they cried out, and said, O thou man of God, there is death in the pot. And they could not eat thereof.
(41) But he said, Then bring meal. And he cast it into the pot; and he said, Pour out for the people, that they may eat. And there was no harm in the pot.

Language comes into pay here. Jesus did not say "Some" will be given this sign. He says ALL who believe will be followed by these signs. This is how we can know they are true believers and who is not a true believer (if this was true)

of course we know it is not true. So we must reject the idea Jesus made such a claim. Especially since it contradicts other things he has said.


Jesus

John 3:15-16

  1. that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

where is the word Baptism? Why is it left out of this passage, but included in mark 16?

Condemned?

in both places jesus says condemnation is due to non belief only. This would leave Jesus with the problem of contradicting himself. What of a person who believes, as per John 3, but is not baptized in water, as in mark 16. Would he not be condemned if baptism is required? The fact Jesus does not say, He who does not believe, OR he who believes, but is not baptized, Shall be condemned.


Scripture can not contradict itself. otherwise scripture is null and void. Jesus would not contradict himself. We should not add things to God's word which causes him to do just this.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#16
Language comes into pay here. Jesus did not say "Some" will be given this sign. He says ALL who believe will be followed by these signs. This is how we can know they are true believers and who is not a true believer (if this was true)

of course we know it is not true. So we must reject the idea Jesus made such a claim. Especially since it contradicts other things he has said.


Jesus

John 3:15-16

  1. that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

where is the word Baptism? Why is it left out of this passage, but included in mark 16?

Condemned?

in both places jesus says condemnation is due to non belief only. This would leave Jesus with the problem of contradicting himself. What of a person who believes, as per John 3, but is not baptized in water, as in mark 16. Would he not be condemned if baptism is required? The fact Jesus does not say, He who does not believe, OR he who believes, but is not baptized, Shall be condemned.


Scripture can not contradict itself. otherwise scripture is null and void. Jesus would not contradict himself. We should not add things to God's word which causes him to do just this.
Mark 16:15-18
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


This is the texts where does it say all will do these things? It says they shall follow but, it does not say that all will do them. The Pentecostals make the mistake by saying that all will speak in tongues, but the tongues they speak is confusion and comes from Babylon.

Also verse 16 the key is to believe and if Jesus who had no sin can get baptized then we should. And if we believe God we will do what He asks us to do.
 
May 6, 2011
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#17
I can believe there is like a daily argument over whether or not you need to get baptized to be saved...i mean seriously, who cares? Ive never met a christian who hasnt been baptized and must of them dont believe its an absolute for salvation but do it ouut of obedience. Who cares it gets done, everyone is happy, move on. Seriously the amount of 'i must prove im right' when baptism is already a fairly common practice is ridiculous.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#18
I can believe there is like a daily argument over whether or not you need to get baptized to be saved...i mean seriously, who cares? Ive never met a christian who hasnt been baptized and must of them dont believe its an absolute for salvation but do it ouut of obedience. Who cares it gets done, everyone is happy, move on. Seriously the amount of 'i must prove im right' when baptism is already a fairly common practice is ridiculous.
I think you should care. If your adding a work of man and expecting because of this work you will be saved, your believing in a works based Gospel. Not a gospel of faith.

Also. Stating the baptism performed by men in water replaces the baptism performed by God through the HS is attributing to man the work of God. Jesus said, when men attributed the work of the HS in him to Satan that they risked committing blasphemy of the HS. and if they did not change they would commit the unpardonable sin. This is no different. Except people attribute the work of God (the HS) to man.

Paul makes it clear in his letter to the colossians


Col 2:
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[a] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

OT circumcision represented a person who was clean (vs an unclean gentile who was not circumcised)

Paul is telling people it is not the circumcision by the hands of men which makes us clean, it is the one done by the hands of God. We are cleansed by being buried with him in baptism, and are raised to a new life. (this baptism is performed by God, who raised him from the dead, namely the HS)

Before we were saved, we were unclean, and dead to Christ. After we are saved, Through this "baptism of the HS" we are "made alive" because God has forgiven us all sin.

The new church had trouble with jews wishing to add circumcision to faith to the Gospel. Paul fought this in Galatians when he said if anyone teaches a different gospel. let that gospel be accursed (damned)

Water baptism is the modern day work of men which people are trying to add to the gospel of Christ. and Just like paul had to condemn jews who were teaching we must add circumcision to the gospel., we should condemn the false teaching of baptismal regeneration which is performed in water by man, and not which is performed by God the HS himself.
because they were adding the work of men to the work which is supposed to be done by God, and saying this is what saves you (a gospel of works)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#19
Mark 16:15-18
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


This is the texts where does it say all will do these things? It says they shall follow but, it does not say that all will do them. The Pentecostals make the mistake by saying that all will speak in tongues, but the tongues they speak is confusion and comes from Babylon.

Also verse 16 the key is to believe and if Jesus who had no sin can get baptized then we should. And if we believe God we will do what He asks us to do.
Again you missing the point. The point is language. It says these signs will follow THEM (it does not say some of them, It says them (those who believe) , so to assume it just means some is to assume something that is not intended or should be added is dangerous and not called for. This verse, If scripture) would show that those who say if one does not speak in tongues they are not saved are correct in their assumptions. Because Jesus said this will be done by "those who believe) not some of them.

second. Yes we should be baptized. I am not speaking against water baptism. It is the first command those who are "made disciples" are supposed to obey. To disobey this command would be sin. I agree.

What I am arguing against is those who wish to replace the baptism performed by God (the HS) with the baptism performed by the hands of men.

Jesus makes it clear here (if he said these words ) Baptism must be added to belief to be saved. That is why I can not accept this verse as scripture. Jesus would be contradicting himself.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#20

What I am arguing against is those who wish to replace the baptism performed by God (the HS) with the baptism performed by the hands of men.


Mark 1:4
(4) John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 1:8
(8) I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

The baptism of the HS is performed by Jesus. Just as in water baptism we are fully immersed into the water so the Baptism of the HS we are fully immersed into the HS by Jesus. Also water Baptism is a symbol of repentance.