BEFORE THE CROSS/AFTER THE CROSS

[Budman]

Those are fairly general admonitions or commands. How does one do those things? By doing his commands, which means doing any and every thing that Jesus spoke/speaks.

Okay, then...

To inherit eternal life, sell all you have and give it to the poor (Luke 18:18-23)

Wash the feet of believers (John 13:14)

Go buy a sword (Luke 22:36-38)

Never lust (Matthew 5:28-30)

If you have lusted, then pluck out your eye (Matthew 18:19)

If any of us have offended you, you have to come to us in person (Matthew 18:15-17)

If you cook a meal, you have to call the poor, the maimed, the blind, and the lame in to eat ( Luke 14:12-14)

Travel the world and preach the gospel (Mark 16:15)

Oh, and be as perfect as God (Matthew 5:48)


Now, get to work.

 

[PeterJens]

Maybe some bigger print will help you to read what we actually believe?
No, PeterJens, you are blatently stating a falsehood.
-JGIG

I am not trying to state a falsehood.
I am simply asking is it possible to walk righteously, not imputed, but actually walk righteously?

You said you were already because of a gift of righteousness. But that is not the answer at all.
It was has the Lord changed you enough so you know you are walking in purity and righteousness.

Listen to Paul
"So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man." Acts 24:16

I would say yes, I am walking in purity and righteousness, as far as I understand these terms.

Paul asked timothy
"Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity."
1 Tim 4:12

If we cannot do this in reality how can we claim to know what Paul is talking about.

 

[JGIG]

Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead

Originally Posted by JGIG

You cannot improve on or take away from that which is perfect and complete.

That's true, but you can sure defile what he's given you.

You are saying that the perfect righteousness of Christ can be defiled.

Scripture, please.

-JGIG

You're not Christ.

But Scripture does say that as a believer, I am one with Christ:

19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (from Gal. 2)

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. (from Rom. 6)

17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. (1 Cor. 6)​

Neither are you the righteousness of Christ. His righteousness is imputed to your account. It's a credit payable at the resurrection.

According to Scripture, we are the righteousness of God in Christ - and it is a gift that we possess NOW, a gift given when we believe/put our faith in Christ and His Work, not a future 'credit payable':

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. (from Rom. 3)
​

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (from Rom. 5)

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (from 2 Cor. 5)​

You are being made into his righteousness as you do his will in faith.

Scripture, please.

And Scripture that backs up this statement, as well, please: "That's true, but you can sure defile what he's given you."


-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

That's a very self-centered and self-elevating belief system you got there, PeterJens.

You have to realise JGIG I am just discussing the issue, not putting all the theology in every sentence etc.

I have faith, because it is not faith of another, or in a church or denomination or preacher.
I am reckoned as righteous because it is to do with me rather than a group effect.

I do like you because you used the word "love" a lot, and that is where my heart is.
People are born in love, which gets bashed and kicked by life until it gets hard and hidden.

For me it is Jesus giving hope to this heart, that brings the good news. God does love you, and you are not alone and can connect. Some literally hated this concept. I wonder how you feel?

 

[JGIG]

Maybe some bigger print will help you to read what we actually believe?



No, PeterJens, you are blatently stating a falsehood.

We repeatedly - REPEATEDLY - state that in Christ we are New Creations, created in Christ to bear the Fruit that HE produces in and through us, and we, led by His Spirit, do the works He has prepared in advance for us to do.



No. That is also NOT TRUE.

We repeatedly - REPEATEDLY - post 2 Cor. 5 where we are told that in Christ

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ,the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.​

No, we don't avoid the question. We repeatedly - REPEATEDLY - state that in Christ, we are righteous with His gift of righteousness NOW.

And because God is not counting the sins of those who are in Christ against them, when we do sin, it does not tarnish the perfect righteousness of Christ gifted to us. See the passage posted directly above.

Furthermore, because we ARE New Creations, we don't want to sin - sinning is contrary to our new nature in Christ - but if/when we do, we walk in the security of our Perfect, Permanent High Priest Who lives forever to intercede on our behalf (see 1 Jn. 2, the letter to the Hebrews).

You preach an odd version of sinless perfectionism, claiming it is possible while simultaneously claiming to be a sinner in need of daily cleansing.



The goal of the Gospel is not morality, and morality, while a good thing, is not the goal, but love, because in love are all the requirements of God met: Forgiveness of sins, the gift of righteousness, the gift of New Life, and the Fruit of His Spirit which furthers His Kingdom.

As far as "being sanctified, transformed through effort", Scripture is clear:

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this:

Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (from Gal. 3)​

Have you read Ephesians? Chapter one in particular?

It is not your faith that does anything, but where you PUT your faith, and that is IN CHRIST, the Author and Perfecter of faith!




Agreed. And thankfully, we have a patient Father who is ever faithful, promising this:

6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (from Philippians 1)​

We HAVE gone there. Time and again. You continue to say that we think ourselves broken/damaged/hopeless, and that is far from the reality of what we think/believe/post. FAR.

Turn away from this doubleminded slander in which you continuously engage. It is sinful, divisive behavior.



-JGIG

I am not trying to state a falsehood.
I am simply asking is it possible to walk righteously, not imputed, but actually walk righteously?

You said you were already because of a gift of righteousness. But that is not the answer at all.
It was has the Lord changed you enough so you know you are walking in purity and righteousness.

Listen to Paul
"So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man." Acts 24:16

I would say yes, I am walking in purity and righteousness, as far as I understand these terms.

Paul asked timothy
"Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity."
1 Tim 4:12

If we cannot do this in reality how can we claim to know what Paul is talking about.

Asked and answered.

Read the full quote above, not just the miniscule portion you quoted.

-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

Are we sinners still sinning or victorious overcomers?

The question I am raising is can a christian, walking with Christ, in the Spirit walk righteously, ever?
I believe he can and that is the promise of Christ in us, and why it is the testimony of light to the world.

People are so bowed down by issues and what they think God demands of them, they never get this far, because they are so deeply into self condemnation, nothing in them is of value, they are into self loathing and not love at all.

 

[PeterJens]

Asked and answered.

Read the full quote above, not just the miniscule portion you quoted.

-JGIG

You did not answer the question. What you said is you are righteous as a gift.

That is not the answer to the question at all. It is just appearing to answer it because you do not want to say, no we are not walking in righteousness or can we.

If you could say we we can walk in righteousness, you would say that.

So I have to take the answer as you cannot walk in righteousness, only imputed righteousness.
Why is that so hard to write or say?

 

[JGIG]

Are we sinners still sinning or victorious overcomers?

The question I am raising is can a christian, walking with Christ, in the Spirit walk righteously, ever?
I believe he can and that is the promise of Christ in us, and why it is the testimony of light to the world.

People are so bowed down by issues and what they think God demands of them, they never get this far, because they are so deeply into self condemnation, nothing in them is of value, they are into self loathing and not love at all.

You did not answer the question. What you said is you are righteous as a gift.

That is not the answer to the question at all. It is just appearing to answer it because you do not want to say, no we are not walking in righteousness or can we.

If you could say we we can walk in righteousness, you would say that.

So I have to take the answer as you cannot walk in righteousness, only imputed righteousness.
Why is that so hard to write or say?

No. Just no. We have effectively communicated what we believe - you have chosen to not read and continue to misconstrue and misrepresent and outright slander what we believe.

If you really want to know, simply go back and read what we have already written.

I'm getting off your merry-go-round.

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

But Scripture does say that as a believer, I am one with Christ:

17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. (1 Cor. 6)​

Yes you are one spirit with the lord, but if you commit spiritual fornication you become one spirit with sin.

According to Scripture, we are the righteousness of God in Christ

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; [/COLOR]that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (from 2 Cor. 5)​

The bible nowhere says that you are the righteousness of GOD. The above verse is as good as it gets - that you might be made the righteousness of GOD in Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Are we sinners still sinning or victorious overcomers?

The question I am raising is can a christian, walking with Christ, in the Spirit walk righteously, ever?
I believe he can and that is the promise of Christ in us, and why it is the testimony of light to the world.

People are so bowed down by issues and what they think God demands of them, they never get this far, because they are so deeply into self condemnation, nothing in them is of value, they are into self loathing and not love at all.

I think that's the baked-in total inability thing going on.

I just had the thought that false grace believers try extremely hard to please GOD by eschewing doing anything to please him.

 

[roaringkitten]

JGIG, amen to all you posted here! Keep contending for the faith!

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake" Matt 5:11

 

[JGIG]

Yes you are one spirit with the lord, but if you commit spiritual fornication you become one spirit with sin.

Another spiritual claim that you've made with NO Scriptural support. You have simply pulled that one right out of your . . . . . . . hat.

The bible nowhere says that you are the righteousness of GOD. The above verse is as good as it gets - that you might be made the righteousness of GOD in Christ.

​

But now apart from the law
the righteousness of God
has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

This righteousness

​
is given

through faith in Jesus Christ

to all who believe.

(from Rom. 3)

It cannot get any clearer than that as to Whose righteousness we're given when we put our faith in Christ. That coupled with the 2 Cor. 5:21 passage doesn't mean that we might - like in maybe we could someday become - but that one of the reasons Christ did His Work was so that we would become the righteousness of God in Christ:

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made [g1096] the righteousness of God in him.​

Strong's G1096 - ginomai​

1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
   1. of events
3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
   1. of men appearing in public
4. to be made, finished
   1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5. to become, be made

It's like when I go to the grocery store so that I might buy some milk. I go in, I buy the milk, I come out - done deal.

YET AGAIN you are teaching completely contrary to Scripture and putting your OWN ideas out there, not the Truthful concepts that are clearly in Scripture.

I'm content to let God and the reader judge between us.

-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

I think that's the baked-in total inability thing going on.
I just had the thought that false grace believers try extremely hard to please GOD by eschewing doing anything to please him.

I wonder how asking someone how they are doing is not just a simple question.

I am doing quite well, but I am sure I have many things wrong, but as with most things if you never ask you never can say I am somewhere I would like to be, and not over there which would be terrible.

Ofcourse there are people who say if you admit failure you will walk in it, so you say you are healed when you are not, else you make the illness real.

Paul set out the qualities of an elder in a church.

Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God’s church?
1 Tim 3:2-5

Now if Paul can ask people to be looked at how they are doing in lifes scales for the office of a leader in the church, it is not unreasonable to ask how people are doing in the purity and walking blamelessly stakes.

It is like I am not talking to christians but an alien race who are scared to just say where they are.

 

[FreeNChrist]

HeRose and PeterJens beliefs both seem to reflect the RCC concept of imputed righteousness.

 

[PeterJens]

Got to say this one simple point. Can you see yourself and who you are?

For by the grace given to me I bid every one among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith which God has assigned him.
Rom 12:3

Imagine I was an alcoholic, a womaniser, addicted to money, covetouness, jealousy, envy.
I come to Christ, I believe he saved me. I stay exactly as I was before. What means I am saved or in the Kingdom?
I have faith in Jesus but nothing else. Is this what the gospel means? Can anyone come to me and say, ofcourse you are not saved, it is just buying into a free meal ticket. This is the criticism John the Baptist and Jesus had against the pharisees.

 

[Grace777x70]

The butchering and contradicting of the scripture is amazing to watch.

It can look that way when it conflicts with what we believe and what we were religiously taught. When a "sacred cow" has a knife to it's throat - things heat up. I know - I had my religious beliefs attacked by the revelation of the finished work of Christ.

 

[roaringkitten]

Got to say this one simple point. Can you see yourself and who you are?

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

 

[Grace777x70]

HeRose and PeterJens beliefs both seem to reflect the RCC concept of imputed righteousness.

Thanks for the article about righteousness - it explains a lot.

So..to the RCC it is a process where you become righteous by what you do....it is the exact opposite of the new inner man in Christ created in righteousness and holiness already now because of Christ's finished work. No wonder they talk about "their righteous deeds" . The gospel of the grace of Christ refutes that belief.

 

[Grace777x70]

HeRose and PeterJens beliefs both seem to reflect the RCC concept of imputed righteousness.

Thanks for the article about righteousness - it explains a lot.



We do righteous deeds now because of Christ's righteousness that is already in us and it is His life and fruit that is in and through us. There is a big difference between "doing our own deeds to become righteous or to maintain righteousness " then to believe in the righteousness of Christ given to us as a gift. The gospel of the grace of Christ refutes this concept of "doing deeds to get and maintain righteousness " too.

 

[PeterJens]

It can look that way when it conflicts with what we believe and what we were religiously taught.

Now this experience explained by grace7x77 does not mean it is a correct understanding, it is just a testimony of someones change of belief. The proposition is the believe is taught a particular point of view.

What if the point of view you hold is the view taught by the Lord and the Holy Spirit. The further from obvious meaning of words the less likely the conclusions people are drawing are true. If you make more of the ideas in your head than based in real life the less likely they are true. If you need lenses to get the right reading, you lens is probably the real cause of the meaning you are drawing and not the truth. The heart of people will always want to justify where they are now, and that there is little need for change. This need is so strong, the more desperate you are the more absurd things you will accept without even blinking.

The real anger here has come from the hyper-grace people and no one else. It should be worrying that the basic fruit of this view is the license to sin, rather than dedicated loving caring people.