Believe but no Holy Ghost? Believe -> sealed with the Holy Ghost

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stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
#21
Look at the story in Acts 19:1-6 carefully:

Acts 19:1-6 1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the LORD Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Paul found "disciples" (vs. 1) who "believed" (vs. 2). They were disciples following and believing what they knew to this point - but all that is said in the text is that this was unto "John's baptism". In verse 4 Paul gives them further instruction that they need to believe in Jesus. And upon hearing and understanding this (vs. 5) is where their conversion came. How could they be "born again" without believing in Jesus? When they were converted, they were baptized, and they received the Holy Spirit, and spoke in tongues.

I think (my opinion!) that Acts 19 properly interpreted shows that these disciples were not born again until Paul came and told them about Jesus. So both Ephesians 1:13 and Acts 19 show that the Holy Spirit is given at the new birth.
Actually the Jews did use the term born anew. It's why Jesus said what He did to Nicodemus. For them it was a wholehearted turning to God much the same as many churches teach.

But, for followers of Jesus, IMO, by study, this is what Paul termed as the Spirit of Christ.

I had an experience of new birth when in response to His question. Then when in a meeting, I responded to an invitation to receive Holy Spirit. A "wind stepped into" me. And the giftings began with testifying.

Two different experiences.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,726
1,064
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#22
Actually the Jews did use the term born anew. It's why Jesus said what He did to Nicodemus. For them it was a wholehearted turning to God much the same as many churches teach.

But, for followers of Jesus, IMO, by study, this is what Paul termed as the Spirit of Christ.

I had an experience of new birth when in response to His question. Then when in a meeting, I responded to an invitation to receive Holy Spirit. A "wind stepped into" me. And the giftings began with testifying.

Two different experiences.
Praise God for your experience! I am glad you got the fire of the Spirit.

But experience does not change what the Scriptures teach . . .
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
#23
Praise God for your experience! I am glad you got the fire of the Spirit.

But experience does not change what the Scriptures teach . . .
Hi Chester

I believe that when Jesus rose from death and appeared to the disciples, there was repentance for doubting what He told them. So before He ascended and charged them to be witnesses, He breathed on them and said, receive Holy Spirit. They were born again. The Spirit of Christ which without none are His.

Then Pentecost.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
5,658
877
113
#24
You know my name means Horseman and ive been dealing with horses since i was born.

Trust me, I WILL lead the horse to water. Hahahahaha.

There is a way to handle them.

They can sense your state of mind and feeling I believe, and if there is any insecurity or fear, they dont like it.

Being in an herd the Stallion will run and they will follow. On the other hand if the Stallion turns away and wont make eye contact or drives a horse away from the herd the others will also. A horse will follow behind the herd and seek to work it's way closer and feels a part of the herd if they make eye contact.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,726
1,064
113
#25
Hi Chester

I believe that when Jesus rose from death and appeared to the disciples, there was repentance for doubting what He told them. So before He ascended and charged them to be witnesses, He breathed on them and said, receive Holy Spirit. They were born again. The Spirit of Christ which without none are His.

Then Pentecost.
So you could be right about the disciples being "converted" then, and Pentecost being later. But I think that their "conversion" was not till they were baptized with the Spirit at Pentecost. But in that interim they had a measure of the Spirit given to them because Jesus had said that he would not leave them as orphans.

But even if you are right and I am wrong, there is still the experience of the 3000 converts at Pentecost, who believed and received the Spirit immediately. Acts 2:38: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." In any case, I think the experience of the 3000 is more the norm for the church today rather than the experience of the 120.

Furthermore there is never a command given anywhere in the NT that we are to seek a baptism of the Spirit.

As I said earlier, I am happy for you and your experience and I do not doubt your experience, but it does not change clear Biblical teaching on the subject.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
7,398
2,082
113
#26
Look at the story in Acts 19:1-6 carefully:

Acts 19:1-6 1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the LORD Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Paul found "disciples" (vs. 1) who "believed" (vs. 2). They were disciples following and believing what they knew to this point - but all that is said in the text is that this was unto "John's baptism". In verse 4 Paul gives them further instruction that they need to believe in Jesus. And upon hearing and understanding this (vs. 5) is where their conversion came. How could they be "born again" without believing in Jesus? When they were converted, they were baptized, and they received the Holy Spirit, and spoke in tongues.

I think (my opinion!) that Acts 19 properly interpreted shows that these disciples were not born again until Paul came and told them about Jesus. So both Ephesians 1:13 and Acts 19 show that the Holy Spirit is given at the new birth.
They were believers. It says so.
Plus they needed no instruction in salvation.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
7,398
2,082
113
#27
Being in an herd the Stallion will run and they will follow. On the other hand if the Stallion turns away and wont make eye contact or drives a horse away from the herd the others will also. A horse will follow behind the herd and seek to work it's way closer and feels a part of the herd if they make eye contact.
That ingredient is brought out in Seabiscuit
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#28
Perhaps there is a transition period in the book of Acts.

Its all over the place. Cant make no doctrine from the book of Acts.

Acts 2:38 baptism saves.
Acts 3:19 repentance saves
Acts 16:31 believe saves.

Oy vey!

Perhaps things are changing because its so early on in the Church period that it takes a while for things to settle? In Epehsians 1:13 we got it settled? Good explanation?
Salvation translated in Greek = deliverance. Being baptized, repenting and believing are all evidences of being born of the Spirit There is a deliverance, here in time, (not eternally because that is in the past) when a regenerated child of God is baptized. This same deliverance takes place also when a child of God repents and believes. Eternal salvation is not the deliverance (salvation) that is referenced in these scriptures.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
#29
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which one is it?
I personally felt God's presence when He saved me. BUT I got a much stronger presence AFTERWARDS.
The people who only were baptised into repentance were not Christians, they were just repentant sinners.
Only when they were baptised in the spirit did they become believers and children of God.

And throughout our lives in Christ we have spiritual experiences in Christ.
And these are marked with different blessings and infilling of the Holy Spirit.

And when people share with us about their faith and their reality in christianity, it does not
mean they are born again or even have an open heart to Jesus.

This always makes things more complicated, and certainly spiritual realities are not the same
though people may use the same words.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
5,658
877
113
#30
That ingredient is brought out in Seabiscuit

I suppose so of horse racing also. Doma vaquera was of the original herdsman on the Iberian peninsula I believe and the the Texas, California styles ect. kind of evolved from there.