Believers and non believers; what's the difference?

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JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#21
"Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness."

It is impossible to be righteous without faith
 

NOV25

Active member
Nov 23, 2019
463
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#22
I believe myself to be a very new believer for one being among religious people all my life -- 71 years. I tended toward being a believer much of that time but only as a guarantee for my children to be safe in G_D and for my completely selfish reasons. I have actually only been a believer for almost 15 years. But regarding this subject, I always avoid it, because it is so scary to me. So I don't deal with it. Now, I am going to deal with it.

All those years, I sincerely thought myself to be a believer (most of the time). Realizing I had been faking it from age 14 until age 56 was almost more than I could take! So I KNOW that this can happen. And when I became an actual believer, I realized that a lot of the people I knew were not the believers they claimed to be -- people in that old church! This shakes me to the core!

So I need to learn this.
Wow thanks for sharing that. I have a bunch of questions:)

So you spent over 40 years in the church before you were actually saved?
What happened at 56, what changed?
How did you know you were saved at 56?

I too considered myself Christian as a teen but was not actually saved until 38.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
36,101
13,432
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#23
And yet the Lord informs us of the wheat and the tares, and for His angels not to pull up the tares, as it would also uproot the faith of many of the wheat. This means, that much of the wheat being intertwined currently with the tares is unaware of who these tares, whom they consider to be their brothers, sisters, parents, wives, husbands, children, and other relatives and friends, are in fact, tares.
He tells us not to uproot the tares, for the angels will do it.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
14,280
6,649
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#24
So, do we honestly love God, His Christ, and our neighbor?
The New Birth distinguishes those who are true believers from those who are only professors of their faith. The children of God have received the Holy Spirit and been born again. AND YOU ARE NOT THE JUDGE. Only God knows His true children.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,861
1,517
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#25
There are two types of people; those who believe IN God and His Christ, and those who do not believe in God and His Christ. Within these two groups, however, are those who believe themselves to be believers in God and His Christ, who in fact do not believe, to whom Christ will profess never having known them (Matthew 7:23); and there are those who do not believe themselves believers in God and His Christ, to whom Christ will award the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 25:34). So what is the difference between these two latter groups of individuals? The difference is in the interpretation of what it means to believe IN God and His Christ. To one individual to believe in God and His Christ means only to believe that God exists and that Jesus is Gods son. Even the devils are aware of this type of believing in God and His Christ (James 2:19), and it does them no good, because they do not believe IN God and IN His Christ. The 2nd of the two latter groups of individuals in Matthew 25:33-40, whom the Lord refers to as His sheep, who did not recognize their faith IN God and His Christ, the Lord explains their faith IN Him through their actions in Matthew 25:35-40. These individuals believed IN loving their neighbor, and thus believed IN God who is love (1 John 4:7-8 & 16), and IN His Christ.
Within the body of Christ today, are both the wheat and the weeds. The weeds are they in Matthew 7:23 whose faith in God and His Christ is superficial and made. These weeds are they, who as the Lord commences to shake the earth, will be shaken out from those who truly believe IN God and His Christ, so that the wheat may remain (Hebrews 12:26-27).
So, do we honestly love God, His Christ, and our neighbor?
This misses the entire point of what salvation is , how its appropriated and the components of it . It sounds like you think we're saved by ' ' concentrating '
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,861
1,517
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#26
Yes Runningman, those who truly love God/love, results in acts of loving our neighbor, as is described in Matthew 25:33-40.
There are, however, also those who will have cast out demons, proclaimed the Lord, and have done a number of good works, to whom Love (the Lord) will declare, never having known them (Matthew 7:23). As I mentioned in my OP, this latter group are the weeds currently among the wheat, who when the Lord once again shakes the earth (Hebrews 12:26-27), shall shake out these things that are made by man (the weeds), who are hypocrites to the true faith IN God and His Christ, thereby leaving the wheat.
Can you love God if your not saved ?
 

Beez

Senior Member
Nov 27, 2017
463
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#27
Wow thanks for sharing that. I have a bunch of questions:)

So you spent over 40 years in the church before you were actually saved?
What happened at 56, what changed?
How did you know you were saved at 56?

I too considered myself Christian as a teen but was not actually saved until 38.
:)

Multiple things were different before that day in my 56th year.

I started writing my answer to you, and it turned into a book, so I just moved it to my diary and wrote the following:

1. I deeply loved Father, a Christian minister in our church, and hated Mother, a professed witch who was very active in that church. The hatred, not the love, affected everything in my life.
2. The pastor we had from my birth delighted in raging and snarling from the pulpit until his face literally turned purple and his neck turned deep red. He unnerved me, as did the church's use of "tongues."
3. In spite of my love for Father, there was no stability, nothing to trust in, at home, school, or church, but there Mother's abuse at home. Abuse for all of us.
4. Regardless, I started thinking about G_D at 14 and decided I wanted to be a believer because maybe G_D could make me nice. As I had been told to do, I went to their altar to pray, but when I heard Mother's voice, I claimed I was "saved," got up and left.
5. I did, however, start being interested in the Bible and asked one of the ministers (what I see now as a very simple question) about several verses in Genesis, and he acted like he'd never seen them, then said he didn't know the answer. Putting a lot of things together, I realized the leaders were completely biblically uneducated.
6. Three married pastors were inappropriate with me, increasing my disgust and distrust.

What set me up for being a believer was that the church kicked me out for refusing to remove my wedding ring, so I started attending a place I had already investigated and attended a few times over about 3 years. One night, during a class, I suddenly realized how filthy I was in spite of my confession. I nearly passed out on the floor, but with great effort, kept my seat and kept my face away from the other attendees. But I was changed. Completely. I felt like I lived the next weeks with my mouth hanging open, in shock, at the "new me": my attitudes, my responses, my thoughts! :)

What's your story? :)
 

Beez

Senior Member
Nov 27, 2017
463
83
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#28
And what I also Believe:

Not to the exact specifics of how the Holy Spirit was evident in the Book of Acts when we first meet the Holy Spirit, But i think the Last Day outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the final time it happens, will be a Testimony that all True Believers will understand and will be witnessing and be in the [Flow] of. It will be incredible. But we will know [then] the End is around the corner.
Hey, Brat! (You're cute!) You probably didn't think about this, but the H Spirit is introduced in Genesis 1.2. ;)
 

Beez

Senior Member
Nov 27, 2017
463
83
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#29
We are very close in spiritual age :):love::)

I rebelliously resisted the call of God on my life for a long time, running, running, running... until my predicament regarding the question of Who He is, and whether or not He truly exists, became so dire, I started going to church in my late forties, after having left the "religion" of my upbringing as a teenager... at that time I was invited by a friend to an Alpha Course at one of the churches I was attending. She was going to be a table host, and I agreed quite readily, partially out of my respect for her, but also out of curiosity, and the general seeking mode I was engaged in. Lo! At some point during the Alpha Course I realized that the course was designed to convince people of the Truth of God's Word, and with this realization came another: I needed no more convincing! My years of running from God came to a grinding halt, and I was baptized at the end of the A.C. in November of 2014 :D Praise the Lord, for He is good; His love endures forever! :):love::)

God is long suffering towards us, this I know, and am so grateful He allowed me to survive the stupidity of my youth :D
Yes! Yes, yes! For some of us, we fight the One and Only Who can insert the saving grace into our needy lives. That's clearly not an intelligent move, is it? :love::giggle:
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
36,101
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#30
Yes! Yes, yes! For some of us, we fight the One and Only Who can insert the saving grace into our needy lives. That's clearly not an intelligent move, is it? :love::giggle:
Yeah, no, and I had to laugh, for truly you are correct, it is not an intelligent move... and yet it is the inclination of the natural man to do so, stemming from pride, in thinking surely all those "religious" people are wrong about God; there is something, but surely it is not that? Being in this state for the majority of my adult life, and entering into a seeking phase fairly young, I gained a good deal of experience in what it is and means to be lost, which translated handily and I can see God used in my speaking to non-believers over a period of eight years before I became a member here. I do not know how fruitful those years were, as from my perspective it became like banging my head against a wall, LOL - you know what it is like talking to people have have their minds made up ;) Regardless, I found those years quite rewarding in my own walk, for I was a young Christian at the time I started engaging non-believers online, and I learned a lot :D The first thing I learned upon joining my first site as an apologist was how hated I was simply for being a Christian! :oops:o_O:oops:
 
Oct 19, 2020
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#31
Hey, Brat! (You're cute!) You probably didn't think about this, but the H Spirit is introduced in Genesis 1.2. ;)
Thank You and I was aware.

Let me ask you a question here. When we think about the [WORD]. The Word was God, is God, with God. The WORD was [made] flesh.

So, what do you think the Word was before being made flesh?
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

I think the WORD was Spirit before being made flesh.

What do you think?
 

Beez

Senior Member
Nov 27, 2017
463
83
28
#32
I believe that our G_D, as His Trinity, always existed as The Three In One and that our Messiah always was the Word Who spoke and created. :) I believe that The Three always had their specific "jobs."

I recently did my deepest study of just Genesis 1 and 2 -- deeper than I had ever done before, and, of course, These came up. Sure wish I knew everything, but I don't. :)

I have started keeping an alphabetical five-volume "diary" of such studies. Loving that. I no longer teach, but I have two children that I think of while studying. But reality is that for now, I am doing this for myself. :cool:
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
10,468
2,017
113
#33
There are two types of people; those who believe IN God and His Christ, and those who do not believe in God and His Christ. Within these two groups, however, are those who believe themselves to be believers in God and His Christ, who in fact do not believe, to whom Christ will profess never having known them (Matthew 7:23); and there are those who do not believe themselves believers in God and His Christ, to whom Christ will award the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 25:34). So what is the difference between these two latter groups of individuals? The difference is in the interpretation of what it means to believe IN God and His Christ. To one individual to believe in God and His Christ means only to believe that God exists and that Jesus is Gods son. Even the devils are aware of this type of believing in God and His Christ (James 2:19), and it does them no good, because they do not believe IN God and IN His Christ. The 2nd of the two latter groups of individuals in Matthew 25:33-40, whom the Lord refers to as His sheep, who did not recognize their faith IN God and His Christ, the Lord explains their faith IN Him through their actions in Matthew 25:35-40. These individuals believed IN loving their neighbor, and thus believed IN God who is love (1 John 4:7-8 & 16), and IN His Christ.
Within the body of Christ today, are both the wheat and the weeds. The weeds are they in Matthew 7:23 whose faith in God and His Christ is superficial and made. These weeds are they, who as the Lord commences to shake the earth, will be shaken out from those who truly believe IN God and His Christ, so that the wheat may remain (Hebrews 12:26-27).
So, do we honestly love God, His Christ, and our neighbor?
Good day, Luigi!

The clue to understanding why Jesus will say "I never knew you," is found right in the context. Below is the scripture:

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ "

When they find out that they cannot enter into the kingdom, their response will be "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in you name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"

Their own response reveals why they won't be able to enter in, which is because they will have been trusting in their own works for salvation. They demonstrate this by saying "Did we not." The will of the Father is for us to believe in His Son. We are saved by grace through faith and this not by our own efforts. The right answer would be "Lord, Lord, did you not shed your blood for us?" Of course, if they believed that, then Jesus would be saying to them to depart from Him.

Therefore, if anyone is trusting in anything other than the shed blood of Christ as means of obtaining eternal life, they will not be able to enter in.
 
Oct 19, 2020
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#34
I believe that our G_D, as His Trinity, always existed as The Three In One and that our Messiah always was the Word Who spoke and created. :) I believe that The Three always had their specific "jobs."

I recently did my deepest study of just Genesis 1 and 2 -- deeper than I had ever done before, and, of course, These came up. Sure wish I knew everything, but I don't. :)

I have started keeping an alphabetical five-volume "diary" of such studies. Loving that. I no longer teach, but I have two children that I think of while studying. But reality is that for now, I am doing this for myself. :cool:

That's wonderful! I love it that you have such a desire to gain from God's Word. I hope your mind becomes a magnet picking things up [that God] desires you to see through "His viewpoint."
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,165
210
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#35
He tells us not to uproot the tares, for the angels will do it.
The angels will do it eventually, but not while the two are growing together. There comes a point when the Lord considers the growth sufficient to commence the harvest. We see the wheat harvest being first in Revelation 14, while the tares are second. In the Olivet discourse we see the tares in family members turning in family members who are wheat unto their deaths (Mark 13:12), thereby corroborating the first harvest is that of the faithful.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,165
210
63
#36
The New Birth distinguishes those who are true believers from those who are only professors of their faith. The children of God have received the Holy Spirit and been born again. AND YOU ARE NOT THE JUDGE. Only God knows His true children.
There are many who claim they have received the Holy Spirit and are born again, who in truth are they in Matthew 7:23 to whom the Lord will profess never having known.
If we love one another, the Lord who is love, then knows us.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,165
210
63
#37
This misses the entire point of what salvation is , how its appropriated and the components of it . It sounds like you think we're saved by ' ' concentrating '
Many will say to Jesus,: "Lord, Lord..." (Matthew 7:21), to whom Jesus will reply never having known them (Matthew 7:23). Only those who do Gods will shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. And what is to do the will of God who is love? The will of God is for us to love God and our fellow man. Those doing so, even if they have never heard of Jesus (like the Samaritan in Luke 10), shall inherit the kingdom of heaven (also like those who believed in loving their neighbors in Matthew 25:33-40).

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,165
210
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#38
Can you love God if your not saved ?
God is love (1 John 4:7-8 & 16). If you love, you are saved; just like the Samaritan in Luke 10, and those in Matthew 25:33-40, who were unaware of their faith in loving their neighbor, representing love for God.
They who believe IN Jesus in John 3:16, include the Samaritan in Luke 10 who never heard of the name Jesus, along with those in Matthew 25:33-40, who also were unaware of their faith in loving their neighbor, representing believing IN God and His Christ who is Love.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,861
1,517
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#39
Many will say to Jesus,: "Lord, Lord..." (Matthew 7:21), to whom Jesus will reply never having known them (Matthew 7:23). Only those who do Gods will shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. And what is to do the will of God who is love? The will of God is for us to love God and our fellow man. Those doing so, even if they have never heard of Jesus (like the Samaritan in Luke 10), shall inherit the kingdom of heaven (also like those who believed in loving their neighbors in Matthew 25:33-40).

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
And what does Romans 10.9+10 say the will of God is for everyone today ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,861
1,517
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#40
God is love (1 John 4:7-8 & 16). If you love, you are saved; just like the Samaritan in Luke 10, and those in Matthew 25:33-40, who were unaware of their faith in loving their neighbor, representing love for God.
They who believe IN Jesus in John 3:16, include the Samaritan in Luke 10 who never heard of the name Jesus, along with those in Matthew 25:33-40, who also were unaware of their faith in loving their neighbor, representing believing IN God and His Christ who is Love.
No this is not how someone is saved today. Like not even close . I don't think any response to the question " what must I do to be saved ?" was ever met with " love God " .