Believers Can Fall Away

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Laodicea

Guest
#1
[h=3]Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)[SUP]
4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[SUP]
5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/h]
According to these verses it is possible for believers who have tasted the heavenly gift and the world to come to fall away. OSAS is a false security.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,712
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#2
Apparently he wasn't referring to the Jewish Christians he was addressing, how do you know by extension he was referring to any true Christian and not barren (v.8) 'professors' of Christ?

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
 
May 15, 2013
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#3
Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)[SUP]
4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[SUP]
5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



According to these verses it is possible for believers who have tasted the heavenly gift and the world to come to fall away. OSAS is a false security.
Luke 22
31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

Matthew 18:22
Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.


 
Jan 21, 2013
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#4
Apparently he wasn't referring to the Jewish Christians he was addressing, how do you know by extension he was referring to any true Christian and not barren (v.8) 'professors' of Christ?

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Thats correct, He here distinguish those who may fall away with those who are saved.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
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#5
Couple this passage with that quoted by the OP...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#6
Yet no one will believe its impossible to be brought back to repentance.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#7
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Bible clearly teaches that one can be purged of their old sins and yet be barren and unfruitful. Jesus taught this...

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The word abide means to continue, endure, tarry, remain.

Reformed Theology will teach "Perseverance of the Saints" which means that a genuine saint will persevere to the end (due to the notions of Irresistible Grace and Unconditional Election) and thus deny the possibility of a genuine Christian falling away.

Yet if a genuine Christian cannot fall away why does Jesus contend for people to "remain, continue, endure, tarry" in Him? To use such language would be redundant because under the Perseverance doctrine the "true saints" would abide and those who were "fake" would not.

When Paul wrote the Ephesians he warned them to follow God and thus not be involved in the sins of the flesh. Moreover he warned them not to be deceived by vain words for the wrath of God comes upon those who disobey.

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

If Perseverance of the Saints is true and a true saint cannot fall away then why does Paul speak in such a manner?

Shortly thereafter in the same letter Paul wrote...

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Paul clearly teaches that putting on the whole armour of God is absolutely necessary in regards to "standing."

He then went on to state...

Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

When such passages are taken alongside...

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

...the picture painted by Paul is clearly that of entering into s certain state and then being diligent that one remain there. There is no indication given by Paul of the notion of unconditional eternal security.

Paul taught that we are to strive for the incorruptible crown like an athlete strives for victory in a race. Moreover Paul stated that he keeps his own body under subjection lest he himself be a castaway.

Does that sound anything like Reformed Theology and the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints?

Did Paul go around preaching to "trust in Jesus" and that "true saints cannot fall away"? In other words did Paul preach "PASSIVITY combined with TRUST IN DOCTRINAL STANCES whereby God would do it all for you?" or do he preach "ENDURING ACTIVITY which was associated to WALKING IN TRUTH"????

Paul warned those who professed Christ to depart from iniquity and serve righteousness. Basically the WALK must match the TALK.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

'If a man therefore purge himself from these" is a conditional statement. It is something that Paul was contending believers do. If they will depart from iniquity and serve righteousness THEN shall they be a vessel unto honour, sanctified and for God's use. Paul gives no allusion that such a thing is "automatic" in a genuine Christian, Reformed Theology on the other hand doesn't teach "IF" but rather "WHEN" because according to them "what man does" has NOTHING to do with it.

The WHEN of Reformed Theology is AUTOMATIC because they believe in Irresistible Grace and Unconditional Election and thus the CHOICES OF MEN have nothing to do with salvation. Hence when they preach the Gospel the focus is on the "sovereignty of God" to the exclusion of any CONDITIONS having to be met on the part of men.

In a nutshell they preach a salvation WITHOUT conditions hence their need to refute the notion that a believer can fall away. If a believer can fall away their doctrines force a conclusion of "God being weak" and therefore "not truly sovereign."

If the Reformed Position is true then why does Peter contend that believers "add diligently to their faith" that they may "gain abundant entrance into the kingdom" whilst contending that "those who do not add diligently to their faith will remain unfruitful and thus forget they were purged of their previous sins"?
 
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Aug 15, 2009
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#8
Yet no one will believe its impossible to be brought back to repentance.
I do, but it's a gamble to put yourself there in the first place. Some people go too far.

Hebrews 6:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.

Dead works are those we have to repent of..... those of the world. The author is stating that those in the continuing circle of repent/sin/repent again over the same things need to go back & do the first works, & once having done those, to go on to maturity so that they don't risk going in circles again. V3 speaks of some going apostate & God won't allow them back.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#9
Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)[SUP]
4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[SUP]
5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



According to these verses it is possible for believers who have tasted the heavenly gift and the world to come to fall away. OSAS is a false security.

You forgot the rest of the passage.


[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


The earth is us. the rain is Gods help for those who are saved.

the blessings (on earth) (Gold Silver Precious Stone is given to those to whom God cultivates through growing in Christ.

The thorns and briars (wood hey straw) are the results of those who do not grown in Christ.

But the most important part is this. It does not say they ARE CURSED (loss of salvation) it says they are NEAR TO BEING CURSED. or as Paul says in 1 corinthians, They themselves are still saved, even as though through fire (they have nothing to show for it.

So sorry, The context of the passage DOES NOT SUPPORT one can fall away and lose salvation, In fact quite the opposite. One can not fall away, IF THEY COULD they could not be renewed. they would be lost forever.. Thus we should not return to law (the context of the WHOLE book of Hebrews.

Paul is arguing aginst returning to law. NOT that one can lose salvation!
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
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#10
Why the obsession and paranoia about Once saved always saved and can believers who fall away be doomed?

How about it is people who want to play at being a Christian on Sundays or people who just fed up with the struggle and want to return to a non-christian lifestyle, but still want some kind of assurance that their eternal life will be with God.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#11
Why the obsession and paranoia about Once saved always saved and can believers who fall away be doomed?

How about it is people who want to play at being a Christian on Sundays or people who just fed up with the struggle and want to return to a non-christian lifestyle, but still want some kind of assurance that their eternal life will be with God.
Will God keep his promise based on his word or will he not.

God says he is faithfull even when we are faithless. Did God lie?

the issue is the character of God. Not us.
 
D

djness

Guest
#12
Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)[SUP]
4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[SUP]
5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



According to these verses it is possible for believers who have tasted the heavenly gift and the world to come to fall away. OSAS is a false security.

1. There has never ever been a post on CC like this concerning OSAS. :confused:
2. It seems to be the idea of many people that if you DO believe in eternal salvation you MUST be reveling is sin at all times.
3. It does not seem possible at all for a person to believe they have salvation and NOT want to live in sin according to many of these trite and absolutely redundant posts. Oh two words that mean the same thing...redundancy!
4. Verses such as the following ''He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.'' These verses probably do not exist in the bible because they cannot seem to be posted by the same people who believe differently. This verse being found in 1 Corinthians 1:8 probably don't actually exist in the bible at 1 Corinithians 1:8 and you should never actually read any scripture in the bible that does not support your position.

Do I know if you can lose your salvation or if you can be held firm to the end? I do not. Do I know that the bible has verses to both sides of the arguments and am I willing to post them? Sure, I can do that!


 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#13
1. There has never ever been a post on CC like this concerning OSAS. :confused:
2. It seems to be the idea of many people that if you DO believe in eternal salvation you MUST be reveling is sin at all times.
3. It does not seem possible at all for a person to believe they have salvation and NOT want to live in sin according to many of these trite and absolutely redundant posts. Oh two words that mean the same thing...redundancy!
4. Verses such as the following ''He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.'' These verses probably do not exist in the bible because they cannot seem to be posted by the same people who believe differently. This verse being found in 1 Corinthians 1:8 probably don't actually exist in the bible at 1 Corinithians 1:8 and you should never actually read any scripture in the bible that does not support your position.

Do I know if you can lose your salvation or if you can be held firm to the end? I do not. Do I know that the bible has verses to both sides of the arguments and am I willing to post them? Sure, I can do that!


Guess this must not be in scripture either..

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Guess God is not capable of doing what he said he will do!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,712
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#14
AAyyyyyyy <----- falling away
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#15

I previously posted this on another thread. Perhaps it will be of some help here.

In Heb. 6:4-8, the writer describes both the prior and latter states of those who had "FALLEN AWAY."

I. Prior state - These had
A. Been enlightened.
B. Had tasted the heavenly gift. (The word for tasted is γευσαμένους which means to experience. This is the same word that is used in Heb. 2:9 saying Jesus "tasted" death for everyone.
C. Been made partakers of the Holy Spirit.
D. Tasted the good word of God.

II.. Present state - They have "fallen away." From what then have they fallen?
A. An enlightened state.
B. The experience of the heavenly gift.
C. The partaking or sharing of the Holy Spirit.
D. The good word of God.
E. Crucified Christ all over again. Like those of Heb. 10:26-31, these have "trampled under foot the Son of God and regarded as unclean the blood of
the covenant by which he WAS sanctified"
(passed tense). In other words these now regard the blood that had once sanctified them as nothing more than the proverbial hog slaughtered on the altar.

III. The impossible delima - It is now impossible to renew the again to repentance. Why? Because they have fallen away from the very thing that brought
them to repentance in the first place which was the word of God. It is now impossible to restore them to repentance. One cannot be REnewed AGAIN to a state they have never occupied. Thus, having once been saved and then having fallen away, they cannot be brought because they will no longer repent. This is of course representing the extreme case.

IV. Their fate. Like the ground that yields thistles and thorns, they are cursed and end up being burned. Just like those of 10:26-31, whose fate is to fall
into the hands of a vengeful God who says, "I will repay."
A. The writer is not saying that they claimed to have tasted, but presents a statement of fact - "They had tasted." But you are right in saying that they returned to the law. These has left the law in response to the gospel. Now that they are rejecting the cross and going back to the law. This is the foundation they were "laying again."
B. The UBS does not show this to be a question. There is no "if" in the Greek. it simply says, παραπεσόντας - literally "having fallen away". This is a statement of fact based on actual cases, not a what if scenario.
C. Under the law, sin was not forgiven on the basis of those sacrifices, but on the basis of what those sacrifices represented - the cross. Lev. chapters 4 and 5 show us that they were indeed forgiven under the law. But it was not by the law. Even David understood this. "How blessed is the man whose transgression is forgiven, whose sins are covered...to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity," Psalms 32:1-2. But he also knew that those sacrifices were not the avenue through which forgiveness came. "Thou dost not delight in sacrifice or I would bring it." Psalms 51:1-2.
D. The inability to renew again is not linked to a supposition of "IF" they were to fall away. The impossibility is linked to the fact that after having been saved they have rejected the cross, not the old sacrifices, and in so doing have shamed Christ openly.
E. The writer does not say they cannot be 'saved' again. He says that cannot be brought back to repentance again. I am sure you would agree however, that this would render them unable to be saved since there is no longer repentance. These where once in a saved relationship.
F. He is not comparing the crucifying of Christ again to the repetitious offering of O.T. sacrifice. To those who have rejected and fallen away, they are considering Christ worthy of the crucifixion. They are rejecting him and his sacrifice. Like those of 10:29, they are considering the blood of Christ "BY WHICH THEY HAD BEEN SANCTIFIED" an unclean thing, and have insulted the Spirit of grace.
G. The writer's point is that these had been sanctified - made holy - something that all of the sacrifices of the O.T. combined could never do. In verse 29, he even draws a contrast between the one's he is speaking of and those who died under the law for rejecting Moses. those who rejected the blood after having been cleansed by it are worthy of greater punishment. Verse 30 shows their fate.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#16
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Note that this verse says we are to continue in His goodness or we will be cut off.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,712
3,651
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#17
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Note that this verse says we are to continue in His goodness or we will be cut off.
Zžzzzz, the passage is speaking of two groups (not individuals)...the saved Gentiles and the unsaved Jewish people. The point Paul is making is to warn the Gentiles not to boast over the natural branches which have been broken off, because God who broke off the natural branches due to unbelief can easily break off the unnatural branches (gentiles) due to high mindedness. This has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with an individual losing salvation.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#18
Yet no one will believe its impossible to be brought back to repentance.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Yep, it is impossible.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#19
Zžzzzz, the passage is speaking of two groups (not individuals)...the saved Gentiles and the unsaved Jewish people. The point Paul is making is to warn the Gentiles not to boast over the natural branches which have been broken off, because God who broke off the natural branches due to unbelief can easily break off the unnatural branches (gentiles) due to high mindedness. This has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with an individual losing salvation.

Paul is indeed talking about two different classes of people but his admonitions are singular in nature. Both the σὲ and the σὺ are singular, not plural. People are neither saved nor lost collectively. People are saved individually.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#20
Paul is indeed talking about two different classes of people but his admonitions are singular in nature. Both the σὲ and the σὺ are singular, not plural. People are neither saved nor lost collectively. People are saved individually.

The notion is destroyed in context.

The natural branches are isreal
The unnatural are the gentiles
The natural (Israel) was cut off
The Unnatural (Gentiles) have been grafted in.

The warning is this.


[SUP]18 [/SUP]do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

The branches are Israel

Israel is blinded in PART (national Not induvidual)

the whole context of the passage concerns two people groups (Israel and Gentile)

One (israel) was cut off. One (Gentile) was grafted in. Do not boast against the branches (Israel) For if they (Israel) repent, they will be grafted back in, While if you (gentile) fall, you will be cut off.

Gods church in the OT was Israel. God cut them off, and gave the responsibility of the church to the Gentiles through paul. If we get boastfull, and make the same mistake Israel made, We can get cut off too. If they repent, They will be grafted back in..