bodily into heaven bodily into hell

zech · Mar 12, 2012

a couple of nights ago as i went to shower i was struck by an odd thought... if korah and his rebellion was thrown bodily into hell (ground opens swallows them) and Elijah was taken up bodily into heaven (chariot of fire and whatnot) this shakes quite a bit of this "spooky spiritual" esoteric views on both those places.... it makes them pretty physical doesn't it?

does that change something in the way we think? what are your views?

*pity i don't know how to add images pictures speak a thousand works*

resurrection33 · Mar 17, 2012

zech said:

I think heaven is the bliss we feel when we have no problems, and I believe our problems are caused by the sin we commit.

I believe hell is the torment we feel as the result of our sin.

If we stop sinning, our torment goes away.

tribesman · Mar 18, 2012

The resurrection of the body is a fundamental christian belief. The sects and heresies will usually deny it.

zech · Mar 21, 2012

for sure the Resurrection is fundamental but my question is actually about those two places(heaven/hell) being real and physical? or am i off in left field?

AnandaHya · Mar 21, 2012

zech said:

of course they are physical places but the spiritual realm is tangible as well.

lol if you want to add pictures there is a mountian icon that looks like this:

copy the image URL and paste into the pop up screen. (you can get the image url by right clicking the picture and choosing that option)

ok back to the topic....

I believe Heaven and Hell are actual places and that Angels are called Stars and they have bodies and not just spirits.

here are the verses:

1 Corinthians 15
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh[c] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.

JESUS was raised from the dead and had a body that ate and could be touched.

Heaven is PLACE:

Revelation 21
New King James Version (NKJV)
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

duewell · Mar 21, 2012

perfectly answered anandahya.

duewell

Shilo · Mar 21, 2012

Revelation 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell
Luke 16:23 And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side

Isaiah 14:15-17 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit. Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home
Psalm 55:15 Let death steal over them; let them go down to Sheol alive; for evil is in their dwelling place and in their heart
I believe it is a physical place. A lake of fire burning sulfur that is what we see everytime a volcano goes off.

Molly · Mar 21, 2012

zech said:

Hello Zech,
To my understanding the soul is mortal. It dies, and at death, the entire person or soul goes to hell (sheol, hades). Now, hell is not a place of torment or flames, it is simply the common grave, a place where all the dead go. According to Eccl 9:5,6, 10, all activity and consciousness for all people, have ceased.

"Hades" (or sheol) is said to give up those in it when the general resurrection of the dead begins. (Rev 20:12, 13: John 5:28, 29)

The body + breath (spirit) = a soul, or the whole person. Nothing survives death. Adam was not given a soul but became one with the breath that God put into him. When breathing stops, the soul dies.

Ezek 18:4 tells us that "the soul that sins, dies". We are all souls...we all sin...therefore we all die.

Animals breathe the same air as we do and die the same death as we do. (Eccl 3:19, 20) What makes us different is that Christ came to rescue us from the grip of death. Death is not permanent for us, like it is for the animals.

The Bible does not teach the notion of an immortal soul that departs from the body when we die.
The "spirit" departs, but that is the "breath". It is 'goes out' like a candle. (Psalm 146:4) When we breathe our last, it is the end of life and all consciousness.

All the resurrections performed in the Bible were back to life on earth. When Lazarus was raised by Jesus, he was not brought back from heaven. Jesus said he was "sleeping" and that he would awaken him. (John 11:11) There was no exclamations of where he had been at all. Surely if he had gone to a better place, he would have have said something about it. Was his resurrection back to life on earth, only to die a second time, a blessing in that case?

Jesus was the only one who went to heaven. Those chosen to rule with him in his kingdom (the elect) will also experience this kind of resurrection (Rev 20:6)...but the majority of mankind were always meant to live forever on this beautiful jewel in space....planet earth. (Gen 1:28-31)

Adam was not created to die. He was meant to live here forever with his children. Death has always been a foreign element in human existence. It is called an 'enemy' in the scriptures...and it is to be eliminated. (1 Cor 15:26)

Imagine everlasting life in perfect peace and health on a paradise earth with all of God's creatures living in peace and harmony for the rest of eternity....what a wonderful thought!

zech · Mar 22, 2012

wow yes thanks AnandaHya that's a really nice answer

molly that definitely raises some very interesting questions!
ye there does seem to be a distinction between sheol and gehenna hell the bosum of abraham and eventually outer darkness.

thanks everyone that answered!

im not quite satisfied but as i go on il probably be able to refine the question better hehehe more and more questions!

i love it!!!

AnandaHya · Mar 22, 2012

Those who die in Christ "rest" in this place:

Revelation 6
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Some what distrustful of learning doctrine from someone who denies that Jesus is incarnate God in the flesh......

the Bible doesn't say that the souls POOF and that's the end of them at death, otherwise how could they cry out?

2knowhim · Mar 22, 2012

AnandaHya said:

Because this is not referring to those that have died physically, it's talking about those who have reckoned themselves dead indeed to sin, and alive unto God. Their Identity is in Christ, that it is no longer they who live but Christ in them. That's why their souls are under the Altar of God, this is a present thing in every age.

Why must you always put things off to the future, this is why we wait, for our brethren to be killed as we were.

And Wait, And Wait, .................

zech · Mar 22, 2012

huh *confused look* whats the debate about?... @2knowhim?? explain your position? im not quite following?

molly just reread your post.... i been to hell its definitely a place a little more complicated then a dusty hole in the ground...
but im more interested in heaven, if its a physical place and we are seated there with Christ surely there's a little more then we experience now? i mean hebrews says we can boldly enter etc etc.... so whats stopping us?

AnandaHya · Mar 22, 2012

sorry Zech

the debate is related to the topic but not exactly about Heaven and Hell but more what happens to the soul after the person physically dies and how people read certain verses in the Bible.

It gets confusing but then i don't understand how people read the Bible and think that EVERYONE in the world will be saved even if they unrepentant sinners who reject Jesus....

she wants to make "slain for the testimony" to be figurative and not literal and the person who does the slaying themselves and the thing slain sin and not the person and their actual body, who are literally slain by people because they witness to Jesus and His Gospel.

contradicts these words but anyway....

Matthew 10:21
“Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.

zech · Mar 22, 2012

AnandaHya said:

lol do that again! super simplifying is a great game!

ive been toying with that all saved thing too... but ive not tried twisting scripture though... ive just tried to imagine how far Gods grace could really extend!

it gives me goosbumps and a toothy smile

when i realize Jesus is worthy to receive the reward for His sacrifice.... hehehe cos that means: sorry mr/mrs witch... but you gonna get saved whether you like it or not! hehehe you can do your silly things but in your appointed time you gonna hit that floor face down before the King of glory you gonna cry out for mercy like every one of us had to and like everyone of us yure gonna be blown away by this amazing grace! youre gonna stand in awe His praise will be on your lips youre gonna forsake your idols and charms and youre gonna run for Jesus cos the things of this world grow strangely dim in the light of His glory and grace!!!

hehehe i not gonna make a doctrine about it, but its such fun to think about!

gosh i Love Jesus!

Molly · Mar 24, 2012

zech said:

Hey Zech,

You bin to hell??? Interesting

....was it hades or gehenna?

zech said:

Since all who go to heaven must leave the physical realm behind, it stands to reason that heaven is not a physical location.

Those who are invited to heaven, put off their physical body to take on a spiritual body. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom" so those who dwell in the heavenly realm must be transformed into spirit beings, just as Jesus was.

Do you believe that all Christians go to heaven?

I don't. I believe that only the 'chosen ones' will have that privilege.

I believe that those who go to heaven will make up a government of kings and priests who will rule over the earth with Jesus. (Daniel 2:44)
Kings need subjects and priests need sinners to perform their priestly duties for. Who will these be?

Rev 21:1-4 tells us.

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” (NSAB)

God's first purpose was to have humans living on an earthly paradise forever. Adam and Eve were told to "fill the earth and subdue it". How long would that have taken with just one pair to start the process?
There was no death mentioned except as a penalty for eating the forbidden fruit. If they had not eaten the fruit, they would not have died. How do we know that? Because there was another tree in the garden that guaranteed continued life.

After their sin God expelled them from the garden...why?

"Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever....” (Gen 3:22 NSAB)

God went to extraordinary lengths to ensure that this tree was never accessed again after Adam and his wife defected. (Gen 3:23, 24)

Everlasting life in the flesh was what all humans should have enjoyed from the beginning, but free will was a huge thing to grant to any living intelligent creatures who would go on living eternally. It was necessary to test them. Hence the forbidden fruit. Not eating this fruit caused them no hardship whatsoever. It was off limits because it belonged to someone else. The knowledge that this tree would unleash was place exclusively in God's jurisdiction.
Would they respect his right as Creator to keep that knowledge to himself and obey his directive without question? Satan had to lie and disarm the penalty to make it seem attractive.

Look what Adam threw away by listening to his wife instead of his God.....his realm was supposed to be physical forever. Unending life in beautiful surroundings as a mortals on an earthly paradise. Continued life was totally dependent upon obedience. It still is.

What do you think?

2knowhim · Mar 24, 2012

Can a child choose between good and evil if they have not experienced either?

God is The One who subjected us to Vanity but He did it in HOPE

Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

To believe that Adam was perfect as far as Maturity goes, is a huge mistake.
He was perfect in the sense that He was made by the Hands of our Father.

But Mature enough to rightly discern, NO.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
(God told Adam..Thou shalt Not eat of.....)

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. (As it was in Adam)

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once:(So was Adam) but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (So did Adam)

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (So did Adam)

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.(And so did it with Adam)

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (To bring us to Christ)

The Perfect Plan of God

So as in Adam All die, so also in Christ shall All be made Alive(Quickened)
For as we have all borne the image of The earthly, we shall all bear the image of The heavenly.1Cor.15:49

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ must be Equivalent to The sin Adam brought into The World and upon All mankind, this is why He is called the Last Adam.

2knowhim · Mar 24, 2012

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Subjected

hupotassō
hoop-ot-as'-so
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

Vanity

mataiotēs
mat-ah-yot'-ace
From G3152; inutility; figuratively transientness; morally depravity: - vanity.

3152
mataios
mat'-ah-yos
From the base of G3155; empty, that is, (literally) profitless, or (specifically) an idol: - vain, vanity.

This was Adam's beginning.

babyboyblue · Mar 24, 2012

zech said:

Personally, I believe Heaven is a physical place with physical things. In Revelation, when John saw Heaven open, he saw a throne room, a throne, people sitting on thrones, people kneeling before God. He saw the ark of the covenant. He saw many physical things including Jesus wearing a white rob, fiery eyes, white hair, bronze feet and walking among candle sticks.

zech · Mar 26, 2012

Molly said:

dunno iv been there three times once to the throne room once to a court house and once a little yellow creature took me to the gates... so thats why im asking im hoping someone can give a proper answer.... im remembering the words in job that say "who is this that multiplies words without knowledge", plenty times we have opinions without any experience... as soon as knowledge is combined with understanding it empowers us to walk in wisdom, so im seeking understanding not just head knowledge... from the heart not the head.

hope that clarifies it a little

molly my heart is that everyone great and small go to heaven! no one should go to hell... its a terrible place even the bible says it was created for the devil and his angels its not designed to hold men. unfortunately yes people choose it

but that's a side issue.

this is an interesting point! but what happened with Elijah? was He transformed? yet Jesus is the firstfruit?? and moses and elijah (the law and the prophets) meets with Jesus at the transfiguration? soooooo difficult!

the only thing id like to clarify is the guilt for that sin lay on Adam not eve since he was her covering and shoulda protected her from that deception but that's another side issue

but ye obeying someone you know loves you is bunches simpler then if you doubting their motives!

@2knowhim.... you got well crafted arguments but you hide behind them... share a little of your experience why you think that? share a little about you in this, currently you seem like a YouTube preacher sitting behind an oak desk sounding learned? please id like YOUR opinions and experiences?? share a little with us we not so mean we don't bite much

how can it be equivalent???? not protecting your wife vs the death of God!???

@babyboyblue i have to agree with you on that! but how does that change us? what do we do with that??

thanks again everyone answering its awesome to hear from you

2knowhim · Mar 26, 2012

Quoted by Zech,

@2knowhim.... you got well crafted arguments but you hide behind them... share a little of your experience why you think that? share a little about you in this, currently you seem like a YouTube preacher sitting behind an oak desk sounding learned? please id like YOUR opinions and experiences?? share a little with us we not so mean we don't bite much

Read my Post, and Threads, Yeah,....... You do bite much, and it does hurt.

Maybe not you specifically but others, yes.

Blessings

bodily into heaven bodily into hell

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