Bride of Christ - who is She?

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Marilyn

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Jul 27, 2021
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Such an interpretation would separate the apostles from the church? Not following you. This vision is a grand finale of theological eschatology. There is no one left out of the city but the dogs and unbelievers who are in the lake of fire. The saved are WITHIN, and the unsaved are WITHOUT. There is nothing else. End of Story. The END. Happily Ever After..

Also, since the Jew and Gentile have become one and the Gentile believer inherits the promises of the covenant people as Paul clearly preached calling them both one and that separation removed in Christ, then we know that in the eternal Kingdom of God that distinction is removed so that there is a great mixing of OT and NT believers made one in Christ.

Any hint that this is not so would be a teaching that reeks of the kinds of false teaching that Paul told Timothy to rebuke and which Paul had to constantly wrestle with in the early churches. Those false teachers were trying to present a form of salvation that relied on strict adherence to legalistic intellectual adherence to special revelation or knowledge which made it's initiates into special enlightened ones and elevated them above their brothers.

This is the underlying mechanism behind the Gnostics and it is still being used effectively by false teachers.

Any teaching that puts an emphasis on intellectual agreement to specially enlightened interpretations but ignore personal lives of holiness and godliness belong in this camp of modern Gnosticism and they abound.
Remember that the Lord told the 12 apostles of the Lamb that they would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28) And that we see is in the city, the New Jerusalem. Then notice that the city comes down out of heaven from God. It is not in the highest realm, but closer to the earth which it rules over.

As to everyone being in the city and those without are unbelievers, that is not literal as we would all be in a space less than even the earth. And the walls if taken literally would be protecting us from the unbeliever. No way, it is only the blood of Jesus that saves us.

Finally the Lord`s throne (seat of power & authority) is in the highest, where we, His Body rule and reign with Him. We do not come down but stay with the Lord in the third heaven.

As to `one` in Christ - equal, of one mind, in unity, BUT NOT in the same place. There are realms (Col. 1: 16) in God`s great kingdom and He has different groups ruling in each realm under Christ.
 

Amanuensis

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Jun 12, 2021
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Remember that the Lord told the 12 apostles of the Lamb that they would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28) And that we see is in the city, the New Jerusalem. Then notice that the city comes down out of heaven from God. It is not in the highest realm, but closer to the earth which it rules over.

As to everyone being in the city and those without are unbelievers, that is not literal as we would all be in a space less than even the earth. And the walls if taken literally would be protecting us from the unbeliever. No way, it is only the blood of Jesus that saves us.

Finally the Lord`s throne (seat of power & authority) is in the highest, where we, His Body rule and reign with Him. We do not come down but stay with the Lord in the third heaven.

As to `one` in Christ - equal, of one mind, in unity, BUT NOT in the same place. There are realms (Col. 1: 16) in God`s great kingdom and He has different groups ruling in each realm under Christ.
Rev 21
26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


To suggest that the overcomers of Rev 3 are not in this City is to create in ones imagination two books to make the interpretation fit. No intellectually honest interpreter would attempt that, therefore they must concede that...

1) overcomers in Rev 3 are the church, (these are letters to churches) and

2) They are in the Lambs book of Life, Rev 3 (5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,

3) They are in the New Jerusalem because he said those that are there are those who's names are written in the Lambs book of Life. And therefore the intellectually honest interpreter must abandon any suggestion that the Church is not in the New Jerusalem.

Ahhhh... Now you see. I knew you would. The church must be there because they are in the Lambs book of Life.
Far above means in authority, not location.
 

DavidTree

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Aug 2, 2021
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Israel will be saved. And I am in agreement with those who interpret this as all those of Israel who will turn to Christ and that there is probably going to be a major Christian revival in the nation of Israel itself at the end right before the resurrection of the dead because of the way Paul says... For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? ...
And so if their rejection of Christ as a group led by their leaders caused the fulfilment of prophecy concerning the gospel to be offered to the whole world and bring in saved souls from every nation to be part of the covenant people of God, what will their receiving of Christ be as a group led by their leaders but the ushering in of the prophetic event of the final end time resurrection of the just and the unjust where the righteous go into eternal life and the unrighteous go into eternal damnation and this New earth is created whereby this New Jerusalem comes down upon it and all the righteous that make up those who are part of that "Life from the Dead" are to be WITHIN and those who are WITHOUT are those who have been cast into the lake of Fire.

Rev 21
26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

It is not feasible that the vast multitudes of the redeemed church members who's names are written in the Lambs Book of Life as mentioned in Rev 3 (5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, ) It is not feasible that these could not be included among those who's names are written in the Lambs book of Life that make up this City (rev 21:27)


To suggest that the overcomers of Rev 3 are not in this City is to create in ones imagination two books to make the interpretation fit. No intellectually honest interpreter would attempt that, therefore they must concede that 1) overcomers in Rev 3 are the church, (these are letters to churches) and 2) They are in the Lambs book of Life, and 3) They are in the New Jerusalem because he said those that are there are those who's names are written in the Lambs book of Life. And therefore the intellectually honest interpreter must abandon any suggestion that the Church is not in the New Jerusalem.


The only hint of any other group in the context of the New Jerusalem descending is that it mentions "those that are without"

Granted, the wording in Rev 22 makes one wonder "are there going to be people without this city that match this description?"

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

However, by reading the chapter 21 we see that these that match this description have already been cast into the Lake of Fire.

21But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Which leaves me to understand 22:15 as simply referring to "those that are without" being those in the Lake of Fire. Possibly a visible smoke of their torment being visible in some manner.

"Far above" in the context of Eph 1 is the level of the authority that Christ inherits by his redemptive work. It is true that we inherit that authority in Christ but as part of him not independent of him and we are not talking about a physical location but a level of authority. Higher as in Greater than.
Location is irrelevant. One can say that we are currently seated with him positionally in authority. The redeemed who inherit thrones, dominions, authority, rewards of many kinds we know nothing of until that day comes can inherit them just as well in the New Jerusalem as any other "Location" one can imagine. The Far Above is not physical location but Authoritative position.

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Very well articulated - thank you for taking the time
 

DavidTree

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Aug 2, 2021
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Remember that the Lord told the 12 apostles of the Lamb that they would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28) And that we see is in the city, the New Jerusalem. Then notice that the city comes down out of heaven from God. It is not in the highest realm, but closer to the earth which it rules over.

As to everyone being in the city and those without are unbelievers, that is not literal as we would all be in a space less than even the earth. And the walls if taken literally would be protecting us from the unbeliever. No way, it is only the blood of Jesus that saves us.

Finally the Lord`s throne (seat of power & authority) is in the highest, where we, His Body rule and reign with Him. We do not come down but stay with the Lord in the third heaven.

As to `one` in Christ - equal, of one mind, in unity, BUT NOT in the same place. There are realms (Col. 1: 16) in God`s great kingdom and He has different groups ruling in each realm under Christ.
Marilyn, You missed something here concerning the Lord's throne.

But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp.
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.
Its gates will never be shut at the end of the day, because there will be no night there.
 

DavidTree

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These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God andto the Lamb. Rev.14:4
i just want to say thank you again for your post as very few are able to SEE this - it is refreshing
 

Marilyn

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Jul 27, 2021
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Marilyn, You missed something here concerning the Lord's throne.

But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp.
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.
Its gates will never be shut at the end of the day, because there will be no night there.
Good point there David. Yes the Father and Jesus have their authority in the New Jerusalem however it is NOT their seat of power & authority.

Remember that the Father gave His Son all authority and power far above all. That is far above where Lucifer had ruled, far above the angels, far above principalities and powers, far above the city, and far above the earth. (Eph: 1: 21 & 22)
 

DavidTree

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Good point there David. Yes the Father and Jesus have their authority in the New Jerusalem however it is NOT their seat of power & authority.

Remember that the Father gave His Son all authority and power far above all. That is far above where Lucifer had ruled, far above the angels, far above principalities and powers, far above the city, and far above the earth. (Eph: 1: 21 & 22)
YES, and once "all satanic rule and authority has been defeated" we see the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb together as the Temple which is also the Throne. It is the Temple and Who the Temple IS that we find ourselves 'figuratively' married to and Eternally Bonded to.

When the earthly Temple was originally built in Jerusalem, it was considered as God's Throne on earth.

PEACE and BLESSING and Good Nite
 

Marilyn

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Jul 27, 2021
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YES, and once "all satanic rule and authority has been defeated" we see the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb together as the Temple which is also the Throne. It is the Temple and Who the Temple IS that we find ourselves 'figuratively' married to and Eternally Bonded to.

When the earthly Temple was originally built in Jerusalem, it was considered as God's Throne on earth.

PEACE and BLESSING and Good Nite
Hi David,

It is only late afternoon here, so I will answer you.

So are you saying that the Lord will NOT be ruling from the highest, but come down out of heaven from God? (Rev. 21: 2)
 

DavidTree

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Aug 2, 2021
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Hi David,

It is only late afternoon here, so I will answer you.

So are you saying that the Lord will NOT be ruling from the highest, but come down out of heaven from God? (Rev. 21: 2)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
 

awelight

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And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
I would like to interject a few points here. Is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, now reigning from His Heavenly throne? YES - However, there will come a time, when Christ will sit upon David's throne. The fulfillment of prophecy. David's throne was in Jerusalem and Christ will sit upon it in Jerusalem, (Zion), in the nation of Israel at the beginning of the Millennium and throughout it - into eternity.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

His first advent prophesied.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.

His second advent prophesied. Since this throne is a physical one, in a physical city, it was vital that Jesus Christ was proven to be a legal heir to this throne. (Mat. 1:1-17). As God He has the supreme Throne but as to His human person, He had to have the proper linage to be King over Israel.

The A-Millennial view over looks this necessity and makes several grave errors in their Eschatological perspective.

1) They make the church the new Israel. It is not and the two have distinctive roles in the Kingdom. The idea that the church has somehow replaced Israel, was heavily argued against by the Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 10-13. The fact that this argument is in Holy Scripture, proves that many were already making this same error in Paul's day.
2) This leads to the teaching that God is through with His chosen nation. He is not!! Once the last of the believers, who comprise the church comes in, He will again turn to Israel. Many, many OT Prophecies speak to this point.
3) They teach that we are now in the Kingdom but the Kingdom of Jesus Christ is still future. They do not teach the proper distinction between being in the presence of the Kingdom and being in the presence of the King during His earthly ministry. If one is in the presence of the King of the Kingdom, then it would be said that the kingdom has drawn near. Those who are true believers, are in Christ and Christ in them, thus, they are in the King and the King is in them. However, the actual... physical... establishment of His Kingdom will not take place until the Millennial Reign of the King.
4) Because they teach that the Kingdom is now, they also teach the church has the "keys of the kingdom". How foolish. Can anyone, who has given this subject proper consideration, believe the Lord would give the "keys" (Authority in and over the Kingdom), to fallen people. Even by the miracle of God's Grace in Salvation, the redeemed are not yet perfected and therefore not yet Glorified. There is still darkness in us and we are still grieved by indwelling sin. -- In order to be given the "keys to the kingdom", the church must be glorified and it's members be purged of all sin and be of one-mind with Christ. Then and only then can we reign and rule with Him, that is in Glory and perfectly Holy.

The Lord will return, on this we all agree but we must become united around the truth of the coming Kingdom and the Millennial Reign. Believe the literal context of the OT prophecies and quit trying to spiritualize away their meaning. After all, if the Jews had paid attention to the literal fulfillment of prophecy, they would have know that the Messiah was coming the first time as a servant and then later as King. They would have better understood Isa. 9:6. They accused Christ of Blasphemy because He said He was the Son of God but yet, there it was in Isaiah's prophecy: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given;..." and "...his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God..."
 

DavidTree

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Aug 2, 2021
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I would like to interject a few points here. Is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, now reigning from His Heavenly throne? YES - However, there will come a time, when Christ will sit upon David's throne. The fulfillment of prophecy. David's throne was in Jerusalem and Christ will sit upon it in Jerusalem, (Zion), in the nation of Israel at the beginning of the Millennium and throughout it - into eternity.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

His first advent prophesied.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.

His second advent prophesied. Since this throne is a physical one, in a physical city, it was vital that Jesus Christ was proven to be a legal heir to this throne. (Mat. 1:1-17). As God He has the supreme Throne but as to His human person, He had to have the proper linage to be King over Israel.

The A-Millennial view over looks this necessity and makes several grave errors in their Eschatological perspective.

1) They make the church the new Israel. It is not and the two have distinctive roles in the Kingdom. The idea that the church has somehow replaced Israel, was heavily argued against by the Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 10-13. The fact that this argument is in Holy Scripture, proves that many were already making this same error in Paul's day.
2) This leads to the teaching that God is through with His chosen nation. He is not!! Once the last of the believers, who comprise the church comes in, He will again turn to Israel. Many, many OT Prophecies speak to this point.
3) They teach that we are now in the Kingdom but the Kingdom of Jesus Christ is still future. They do not teach the proper distinction between being in the presence of the Kingdom and being in the presence of the King during His earthly ministry. If one is in the presence of the King of the Kingdom, then it would be said that the kingdom has drawn near. Those who are true believers, are in Christ and Christ in them, thus, they are in the King and the King is in them. However, the actual... physical... establishment of His Kingdom will not take place until the Millennial Reign of the King.
4) Because they teach that the Kingdom is now, they also teach the church has the "keys of the kingdom". How foolish. Can anyone, who has given this subject proper consideration, believe the Lord would give the "keys" (Authority in and over the Kingdom), to fallen people. Even by the miracle of God's Grace in Salvation, the redeemed are not yet perfected and therefore not yet Glorified. There is still darkness in us and we are still grieved by indwelling sin. -- In order to be given the "keys to the kingdom", the church must be glorified and it's members be purged of all sin and be of one-mind with Christ. Then and only then can we reign and rule with Him, that is in Glory and perfectly Holy.

The Lord will return, on this we all agree but we must become united around the truth of the coming Kingdom and the Millennial Reign. Believe the literal context of the OT prophecies and quit trying to spiritualize away their meaning. After all, if the Jews had paid attention to the literal fulfillment of prophecy, they would have know that the Messiah was coming the first time as a servant and then later as King. They would have better understood Isa. 9:6. They accused Christ of Blasphemy because He said He was the Son of God but yet, there it was in Isaiah's prophecy: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given;..." and "...his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God..."

You said: "The idea that the church has somehow replaced Israel, was heavily argued against by the Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 10-13."

The LORD and the Apostle Paul both said that His Bride/His People/His Elect are those Jews & Gentiles who have been brought into the Everlasting Covenant of Grace by the Blood of Christ.

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

You do not understand the Scriptures and the Eternal Covenant of the Blood of Christ.

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Anyone who seeks to separate the Body of Christ by separating the Redeemed Jew from the Redeemed Gentile is in SIN.
 

awelight

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You said: "The idea that the church has somehow replaced Israel, was heavily argued against by the Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 10-13."

The LORD and the Apostle Paul both said that His Bride/His People/His Elect are those Jews & Gentiles who have been brought into the Everlasting Covenant of Grace by the Blood of Christ.



Anyone who seeks to separate the Body of Christ by separating the Redeemed Jew from the Redeemed Gentile is in SIN.
Must of hit a nerve with you. But your replies from Romans 9 - of which I am well aware - has nothing to do with my Eschatological point made in the previous post.

My argument was coming from Romans 10-12. I never suggested some kind of separation in God's Grace. We are all saved the same way, (Romans 9). From OT, NT and the coming age. In Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile distinction, however, there is a distinction in "office" between Israel and the Church (Assembly), in the Millennial Kingdom.

Paul objected to both idea's that Israel was replaced with the church and that Israel, in someway, had been permanently cast off. Just look at his argument:

Israel's Unbelief -

Rom 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.

Israel As A Remnant -

Rom 11:1-5 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture says of Elijah? how he pleaded with God against Israel: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have dug down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what says the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Gentiles Grafted In -

Rom 11:11-12 I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Salvation of Israel Is A Mystery -

Rom 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.

John Gill - on Rom. 11-26a -
And so all Israel shall be saved,.... Meaning not the mystical spiritual Israel of God, consisting both of Jews and Gentiles, who shall appear to be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation, when all God's elect among the latter are gathered in, which is the sense many give into; but the people of the Jews, the generality of them, the body of that nation, called "the fulness" of them, Rom_11:12, and relates to the latter day, when a nation of them shall be born again at once; when, their number being as the sand of the sea, they shall come up out of the lands where they are dispersed, and appoint them one head, Christ, and great shall be the day of Jezreel; when they as a body, even the far greater part of them that shall be in being, shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their King; shall acknowledge Jesus to be the true Messiah, and shall look to him, believe on him, and be saved by him from wrath to come. There is a common saying among them (c), כל ישראל יש להם חלק לעולם הבא, "all Israel shall have a part", or "portion in the world to come"; and in support of this they usually produce the passage in Isa_60:21, "thy people also shall be all righteous": yea, they even go so far as to say (d),
"that hell fire will have no power over the transgressors of Israel;''

Rom 11:30-31 For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.

Then shall the Old Testament prophecy be fulfilled:

Zech. 12:9-11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one is mourning for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Zech. 13:8-9 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people; and they shall say, Jehovah is my God.

Finally, what can we say?

Rom 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever. Amen.
 

DavidTree

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Must of hit a nerve with you. But your replies from Romans 9 - of which I am well aware - has nothing to do with my Eschatological point made in the previous post.

My argument was coming from Romans 10-12. I never suggested some kind of separation in God's Grace. We are all saved the same way, (Romans 9). From OT, NT and the coming age. In Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile distinction, however, there is a distinction in "office" between Israel and the Church (Assembly), in the Millennial Kingdom.

Paul objected to both idea's that Israel was replaced with the church and that Israel, in someway, had been permanently cast off. Just look at his argument:

Israel's Unbelief -

Rom 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.

Israel As A Remnant -

Rom 11:1-5 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture says of Elijah? how he pleaded with God against Israel: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have dug down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what says the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Gentiles Grafted In -

Rom 11:11-12 I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Salvation of Israel Is A Mystery -

Rom 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.

John Gill - on Rom. 11-26a -
And so all Israel shall be saved,.... Meaning not the mystical spiritual Israel of God, consisting both of Jews and Gentiles, who shall appear to be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation, when all God's elect among the latter are gathered in, which is the sense many give into; but the people of the Jews, the generality of them, the body of that nation, called "the fulness" of them, Rom_11:12, and relates to the latter day, when a nation of them shall be born again at once; when, their number being as the sand of the sea, they shall come up out of the lands where they are dispersed, and appoint them one head, Christ, and great shall be the day of Jezreel; when they as a body, even the far greater part of them that shall be in being, shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their King; shall acknowledge Jesus to be the true Messiah, and shall look to him, believe on him, and be saved by him from wrath to come. There is a common saying among them (c), כל ישראל יש להם חלק לעולם הבא, "all Israel shall have a part", or "portion in the world to come"; and in support of this they usually produce the passage in Isa_60:21, "thy people also shall be all righteous": yea, they even go so far as to say (d),
"that hell fire will have no power over the transgressors of Israel;''

Rom 11:30-31 For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.

Then shall the Old Testament prophecy be fulfilled:

Zech. 12:9-11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one is mourning for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Zech. 13:8-9 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people; and they shall say, Jehovah is my God.

Finally, what can we say?

Rom 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever. Amen.
So you are looking ahead to when the LORD restores the Jews at His Coming after the Day of Jacobs Trouble.

I am looking at the Body of Christ now and forever which is who will be Reigning and Ruling with Him for a thousand years.
 

DavidTree

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Aug 2, 2021
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Must of hit a nerve with you. But your replies from Romans 9 - of which I am well aware - has nothing to do with my Eschatological point made in the previous post.

My argument was coming from Romans 10-12. I never suggested some kind of separation in God's Grace. We are all saved the same way, (Romans 9). From OT, NT and the coming age. In Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile distinction, however, there is a distinction in "office" between Israel and the Church (Assembly), in the Millennial Kingdom.

Paul objected to both idea's that Israel was replaced with the church and that Israel, in someway, had been permanently cast off. Just look at his argument:

Israel's Unbelief -

Rom 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.

Israel As A Remnant -

Rom 11:1-5 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture says of Elijah? how he pleaded with God against Israel: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have dug down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what says the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Gentiles Grafted In -

Rom 11:11-12 I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Salvation of Israel Is A Mystery -

Rom 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.

John Gill - on Rom. 11-26a -
And so all Israel shall be saved,.... Meaning not the mystical spiritual Israel of God, consisting both of Jews and Gentiles, who shall appear to be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation, when all God's elect among the latter are gathered in, which is the sense many give into; but the people of the Jews, the generality of them, the body of that nation, called "the fulness" of them, Rom_11:12, and relates to the latter day, when a nation of them shall be born again at once; when, their number being as the sand of the sea, they shall come up out of the lands where they are dispersed, and appoint them one head, Christ, and great shall be the day of Jezreel; when they as a body, even the far greater part of them that shall be in being, shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their King; shall acknowledge Jesus to be the true Messiah, and shall look to him, believe on him, and be saved by him from wrath to come. There is a common saying among them (c), כל ישראל יש להם חלק לעולם הבא, "all Israel shall have a part", or "portion in the world to come"; and in support of this they usually produce the passage in Isa_60:21, "thy people also shall be all righteous": yea, they even go so far as to say (d),
"that hell fire will have no power over the transgressors of Israel;''

Rom 11:30-31 For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.

Then shall the Old Testament prophecy be fulfilled:

Zech. 12:9-11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one is mourning for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Zech. 13:8-9 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people; and they shall say, Jehovah is my God.

Finally, what can we say?

Rom 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever. Amen.
And remember this, that this Promise made to Abraham as to his seed, is the Church, the Body of Christ.

And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time, 16saying, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your only son, 17I will surely bless you, and I will multiply your descendants like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will possess the gates of their enemies. 18And through your offspring all nations of the earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
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And remember this, that this Promise made to Abraham as to his seed, is the Church, the Body of Christ.

And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time, 16saying, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your only son, 17I will surely bless you, and I will multiply your descendants like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will possess the gates of their enemies. 18And through your offspring all nations of the earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Again, David, you seem to be keying in on the aspect of "salvation" when I am speaking about "office". Salvation gives us all unity in the Redeemer but within that unity, there are different distinctions and offices. The wife of God is not the same as the Bride of Christ. The tribes of Israel were not all the same. Judah (The Lion), had a protective responsibility (office) and Levi had a spiritual responsibility. Israel (Nationally speaking) is not the same as the church (Universally speaking).

The primary point I am making is about the role (office) of the church or if you will the "Bride" of Christ. The promise to Israel is not to become the "Bride". Israel is as a "wife" to God. If everyone that is saved, is destined to the same office, then who are the "friends" of the Bridegroom? Who are the blessed that are invited to the wedding feast? The Bride of the Bridegroom cannot be the Bride and at the same time, the guests of the Bridegroom.

Also, the promise to Israel is a land of peace and rest, to be given to them by Jehovah. This is proclaimed over and over in the OT. Echoed by the Lord in passages like: Mat_5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (Spoken on Jewish soil and heard by Jews) - The church is never mentioned in association with land. Our inheritance is Jesus Christ. Therefore, the church's inheritance parallels that of the Levites. While the Levites were members of Israel, their office was distinctly different. The OT says they belonged to God as a holy priesthood. As such, they were responsible for the "Tabernacle" and spiritual wellbeing and worship of God by the other tribes. The other tribes had no part in this responsibility. In point of fact, it was death to them if they touched any of the articles of the tabernacle. The Levite's inheritance is God: Deu_10:9 Wherefore Levi hath no portion nor inheritance with his brethren; Jehovah is his inheritance, according as Jehovah thy God spoke unto him.) The other tribes were promised a physical land inheritance, a physical kingdom, ruled over by a physical King. As of yet, to be fulfilled.

Would one ever say that because the Levites had: "..no portion nor inheritance with his brethren..." - that they were somehow cast off or did not possess God? God Forbid. Their inheritance is God.

In the New Testament epistles, the church is never told to look for the coming King. The church is always looking for the return of Jesus Christ. Our Redeemer and Great High-priest. While Jesus will be the King over His Kingdom, our inheritance of this Kingdom, is through Him, (Thus grafted into the promise), just as the Levites had a place within the "promised land" through the commandment of Jehovah. Each tribe was commanded to give of their inheritance a portion of the land to the Levites. As well as, cattle and sheep and so forth. In other words, the tribes had a responsibility for the care of those who cared spiritually for them. This will continue, in a sense, in the Millennial Kingdom.

Rev 21:23-27 And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb. And the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it. And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there): and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it: and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that makes an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Therefore, the completed Church/Bride, will perform a distinct "office" within the Kingdom, just as the Levites were distinct amongst the tribes of Israel. These shadows and types of the OT should never be forgotten or their lesson misunderstood.
 

DavidTree

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Aug 2, 2021
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Again, David, you seem to be keying in on the aspect of "salvation" when I am speaking about "office". Salvation gives us all unity in the Redeemer but within that unity, there are different distinctions and offices. The wife of God is not the same as the Bride of Christ. The tribes of Israel were not all the same. Judah (The Lion), had a protective responsibility (office) and Levi had a spiritual responsibility. Israel (Nationally speaking) is not the same as the church (Universally speaking).

The primary point I am making is about the role (office) of the church or if you will the "Bride" of Christ. The promise to Israel is not to become the "Bride". Israel is as a "wife" to God. If everyone that is saved, is destined to the same office, then who are the "friends" of the Bridegroom? Who are the blessed that are invited to the wedding feast? The Bride of the Bridegroom cannot be the Bride and at the same time, the guests of the Bridegroom.

Also, the promise to Israel is a land of peace and rest, to be given to them by Jehovah. This is proclaimed over and over in the OT. Echoed by the Lord in passages like: Mat_5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (Spoken on Jewish soil and heard by Jews) - The church is never mentioned in association with land. Our inheritance is Jesus Christ. Therefore, the church's inheritance parallels that of the Levites. While the Levites were members of Israel, their office was distinctly different. The OT says they belonged to God as a holy priesthood. As such, they were responsible for the "Tabernacle" and spiritual wellbeing and worship of God by the other tribes. The other tribes had no part in this responsibility. In point of fact, it was death to them if they touched any of the articles of the tabernacle. The Levite's inheritance is God: Deu_10:9 Wherefore Levi hath no portion nor inheritance with his brethren; Jehovah is his inheritance, according as Jehovah thy God spoke unto him.) The other tribes were promised a physical land inheritance, a physical kingdom, ruled over by a physical King. As of yet, to be fulfilled.

Would one ever say that because the Levites had: "..no portion nor inheritance with his brethren..." - that they were somehow cast off or did not possess God? God Forbid. Their inheritance is God.

In the New Testament epistles, the church is never told to look for the coming King. The church is always looking for the return of Jesus Christ. Our Redeemer and Great High-priest. While Jesus will be the King over His Kingdom, our inheritance of this Kingdom, is through Him, (Thus grafted into the promise), just as the Levites had a place within the "promised land" through the commandment of Jehovah. Each tribe was commanded to give of their inheritance a portion of the land to the Levites. As well as, cattle and sheep and so forth. In other words, the tribes had a responsibility for the care of those who cared spiritually for them. This will continue, in a sense, in the Millennial Kingdom.

Rev 21:23-27 And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb. And the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it. And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there): and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it: and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that makes an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Therefore, the completed Church/Bride, will perform a distinct "office" within the Kingdom, just as the Levites were distinct amongst the tribes of Israel. These shadows and types of the OT should never be forgotten or their lesson misunderstood.
NOPE -

But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets.
And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction,

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices, and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free, but Christ is all and is in all.

READ the letters to the churches in Revelation

And you can Read about the Body of Christ in Revelation chapter 7
 
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NOPE -

But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets.
And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction,

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices, and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free, but Christ is all and is in all.

READ the letters to the churches in Revelation

And you can Read about the Body of Christ in Revelation chapter 7
I give to you a well thought out and time consuming reply and you respond with a disrespectful - NOPE - NOPE to what?

I give up on a discussion with such ignorance. You obviously care nothing about learning BECAUSE you know it all. You continue to rave on about the Salvation that is in Christ, when the discussion is about distinct offices. You ask about the Bride in your post but don't seem to realize that the bride is not every saved person. You obviously don't believe that there will be those that are great in the Kingdom and those who are lesser, thus denying the Scriptures. (Mat. 5:19; Mark 9:35) Are perhaps you believe that everyone in the coming Kingdom will be of the same rank and office. After all the Angels are all the same - he says sarcastically. No difference in the Seraphim and Cherubim or in an Angel and an Arch-Angel. That the covenants are identical you say because there can be no distinction. Perhaps the "persons" of the Godhead are without distinction - God forbid.

Sorry for the soap-box comments but this conversation is futile.
 

DavidTree

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I give to you a well thought out and time consuming reply and you respond with a disrespectful - NOPE - NOPE to what?

I give up on a discussion with such ignorance. You obviously care nothing about learning BECAUSE you know it all. You continue to rave on about the Salvation that is in Christ, when the discussion is about distinct offices. You ask about the Bride in your post but don't seem to realize that the bride is not every saved person. You obviously don't believe that there will be those that are great in the Kingdom and those who are lesser, thus denying the Scriptures. (Mat. 5:19; Mark 9:35) Are perhaps you believe that everyone in the coming Kingdom will be of the same rank and office. After all the Angels are all the same - he says sarcastically. No difference in the Seraphim and Cherubim or in an Angel and an Arch-Angel. That the covenants are identical you say because there can be no distinction. Perhaps the "persons" of the Godhead are without distinction - God forbid.

Sorry for the soap-box comments but this conversation is futile.
The word of God says - Nope

There is no distinction in His Body - NONE, any attempt to undermine this comes not from God.

Everyone whom the Father calls and recieves Christ is a member of His Body, to say otherwise is antichrist.

Did you read the letters to the churches in Revelation?

Did you read about the Body of Christ in Rev ch7
 
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The word of God says - Nope

There is no distinction in His Body - NONE, any attempt to undermine this comes not from God.

Everyone whom the Father calls and recieves Christ is a member of His Body, to say otherwise is antichrist.

Did you read the letters to the churches in Revelation?

Did you read about the Body of Christ in Rev ch7
I still think this conversation is futile but I will ask a few other questions. In regards to Revelation Ch. 7 - Who are the 144,000? Why are they from the Jews only? What is their purpose? What is the time frame?
 

DavidTree

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I still think this conversation is futile but I will ask a few other questions. In regards to Revelation Ch. 7 - Who are the 144,000? Why are they from the Jews only? What is their purpose? What is the time frame?
Dear Brother, i appreciate you - please do not misunderstand me. i cannot agree with anything that Scripture has made clear.
Most especially on His Body/His Elect/His Saints - who we are, in Him - Amen.

Rev ch7 - Why do you think they are only Jews of the flesh?