Busted: "Sinless" Perfectionists Debunked

[KennethC]

So how could one loose their salvation if they are abiding in Christ?

Also, good works is not prerequisite for salvation, it's a byproduct. Paul makes it clear salvation is of faith alone, and not works. We can never be good enough to earn our salvation.

A person is only abiding in Christ if they continue to walk as the bible says to walk.
In other words if you claim you are abiding in Christ but show hatred toward others the bible says you are a liar and the truth is not in you.

Abiding in Christ will show in our outer actions, speech, and treatment of others because the Holy Spirit who is in us can not deny Himself. Therefore He can not deny to follow and keep His own commandments.

People think they are abiding in Christ even though they continue to be carnally minded and sin every single day, but Apostle Paul clearly says that way leads to eternal death because you are still under the law and not walking by the Spirit. Then they turn around and say well I repented and there is no limit on repentance, which is true but at the same time if you lie repent lie again repent lie again repent this is a sign of a not true repentance as you are not stopping on committing that lie.

Your question is valid only based on the continuation of continuing in the faith which is abiding in Christ, but the reason eternal security and osas is not valid is because that standard does not apply to all believers. The bible clearly says multiple times that some will fall away, wander away, depart from the faith do to false teachings and to return to lustful sins. James shows when they do this their soul is not saved from death unless they return to the Lord.

 

[Yahshua]

Wow I'm late to reply...and the conversation is clearly moved on but I just want to clarify...

Well...the thief never actually repented. Rather he saw the sinless lamb ("he shouldn't be up here with us"). Remember (as you guys often remind believers on this forum) there was *nothing* that man (or we) can do to become justified in the eyes of God. Christ/God, with his mercy alone, forgave the thief. The thief didn't do anything to earn forgiveness.

That's not exactly true, my friend. The thief had:

#1. Admitted that he was a sinner.
#2. Asked for the Lord to remember Him when He would come into His Kingdom.

If the thief did not do these things like the other prideful thief on the cross, then he would not have been saved. I would say that only babies, very young children, and the mentally handicapped who do not know right from wrong yet are taken to be with the Lord without them ever making some kind of choice to receive the Lord. Yet, how is that fair when everyone else has to make a choice to receive the Lord?

Well, here is an example: Imagine a bunch of balls of light at God's feet before the Lord created everything. Now say these balls of light are the souls of everyone who has ever lived. God already knows who is going to accept Him and who is going to reject Him from looking at all these lights. So the Lord can then pick up one of these balls of light and place it it into whatever time line or place as He so desires. For God had created a line of believers from Abraham to Joseph. What are the odds of that happening? What about the 144,000 jews in the end times who will accept Jesus mentioned in Revelation chapter 7?

Everyone of those balls of lights still has a free will choice to accept or reject God. The Lord is simply sovereign over all time to know what their decision was going to be and He has placed them into the timeline and place of His choosing. For God had declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).

Well...the thief never actually repented. Rather he saw the sinless lamb ("he shouldn't be up here with us"). Remember (as you guys often remind believers on this forum) there was *nothing* that man (or we) can do to become justified in the eyes of God. Christ/God, with his mercy alone, forgave the thief. The thief didn't do anything to earn forgiveness.

1. If he did not repent, he was never saved
2. He did repent. He understood, He deserved to be where he was, And he understood, Jesus was messiah

I appreciate both of your replies, but maybe we have two different definitions of the word repent.

What I meant was there was no *action* performed by the thief... but surely the thief made a confession of faith. The way I understand repentance is to turn away from sin. Since sin is an *action* of breaking God's law and not a *status*, to turn away from sin (i.e. repent) is to perform acts of obedience to God and not sin. But the thief didn't have anymore time to "stop sinning" and to "live righteously". He was already in judgment; dying with Christ on his cross. There was no action he could perform that would save himself.

Of course it would seem that the widely held view of the word repentance is "to feel remorseful or regretful for sin" maybe? But that's not the understanding I get from scripture regarding the word. For instance:

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:2
and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."


...it wouldn't fit the context if these read like...


Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "[feel bad for your sins] and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Matthew 3:2
and saying, "[feel bad for your sins], for the kingdom of heaven has come near."


...rather based on the context, I think the proper meaning is...


Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "[turn from your (acts of) sin] and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:2
and saying, "[turn from your (acts of) sin], for the kingdom of heaven has come near."


When we read the gospel accounts of Christ ministry we can take note of the order Christ dispenses God's mercy to people. Several times Christ said in this order:

[first step] Your sins are forgiven (justified by God alone)

and then...

[second step] Go sin no more

Yet, if Christ or Peter switched the order it would put our salvation on us as a work to perform (this is why it's strange to read it said that the thief had to do something to be saved).


The "go sin no more" part is the act of repentance, the word appearing to mean from scripture "to turn from your acts of sin and obey God". Repentance is the function of the works that follow saving faith in our process of being sanctified. So to me at least, repentance can't be confused with "a confession of faith", which is what the thief did, confessed. Scripture says when we confess with our mouths that Christ is lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead we will be saved.


As we all know, salvation comes first and is a gift...then our acts to turn from sin comes second. However, this thief on the cross didn't have anymore time to "repent" (as I mean to actually no longer sin in his life). He was hanging there dying with Christ. But the thief *did* confessed that he was a sinner and asked for mercy. And Christ with his infinite mercy, upon hearing the thief's confession of faith, *chose to* forgive the thief. God alone justifying him.

 

[KennethC]

Here is the thing as the thief on the cross is an example of one who comes to the Lord on their death bed, as that confession from the heart is enough to have them forgiven for what they have done. This is what the Catholics have deemed last rights..

However that standard the bible only refers to those who come to the Lord in the last minutes of their life.
All believers who live on after their repentance and confession is made are to show that repentance in their walk in the faith, meaning their actions, and speech are to show fruits met with keeping repentance. Not continuing to do those sins any more.

Some doctrines now days have watered it down to just a change of mind, and not preach on the action that is to follow.
I have gotten into a number of debates with those who use this faulty watered down repentance to defend a gospel of lewdness.

Wow I'm late to reply...and the conversation is clearly moved on but I just want to clarify...






I appreciate both of your replies, but maybe we have two different definitions of the word repent.

What I meant was there was no *action* performed by the thief... but surely the thief made a confession of faith. The way I understand repentance is to turn away from sin. Since sin is an *action* of breaking God's law and not a *status*, to turn away from sin (i.e. repent) is to perform acts of obedience to God and not sin. But the thief didn't have anymore time to "stop sinning" and to "live righteously". He was already in judgment; dying with Christ on his cross. There was no action he could perform that would save himself.

Of course it would seem that the widely held view of the word repentance is "to feel remorseful or regretful for sin" maybe? But that's not the understanding I get from scripture regarding the word. For instance:

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:2
and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."


...it wouldn't fit the context if these read like...


Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "[feel bad for your sins] and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Matthew 3:2
and saying, "[feel bad for your sins], for the kingdom of heaven has come near."


...rather based on the context, I think the proper meaning is...


Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "[turn from your (acts of) sin] and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:2
and saying, "[turn from your (acts of) sin], for the kingdom of heaven has come near."


When we read the gospel accounts of Christ ministry we can take note of the order Christ dispenses God's mercy to people. Several times Christ said in this order:

[first step] Your sins are forgiven (justified by God alone)

and then...

[second step] Go sin no more

Yet, if Christ or Peter switched the order it would put our salvation on us as a work to perform (this is why it's strange to read it said that the thief had to do something to be saved).


The "go sin no more" part is the act of repentance, the word appearing to mean from scripture "to turn from your acts of sin and obey God". Repentance is the function of the works that follow saving faith in our process of being sanctified. So to me at least, repentance can't be confused with "a confession of faith", which is what the thief did, confessed. Scripture says when we confess with our mouths that Christ is lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead we will be saved.


As we all know, salvation comes first and is a gift...then our acts to turn from sin comes second. However, this thief on the cross didn't have anymore time to "repent" (as I mean to actually no longer sin in his life). He was hanging there dying with Christ. But the thief *did* confessed that he was a sinner and asked for mercy. And Christ with his infinite mercy, upon hearing the thief's confession of faith, *chose to* forgive the thief. God alone justifying him.

 

[MarcR]

Surprise, surprise! Actually, you've always seemed sophisticated, for a schiz... I used to love anything I could get my hands on by Harry Ironside.

I think that Harry Ironside; R.A. Tory; D. L. Moody, and Arthur Pink were all fine preachers; and all roughly contemporary.

 

[Stephen63]

Jesus took all my sins and removed them as far as the east is from the west. I shall never come into condemnation. As far as God is concerned, I am already seated in heaven. The seal of the Holy Spirit can never be removed. I have life eternal, and I shall never be cast out.

God promised.

I believe Him.

This church may have thought the same thing.....
Revelation 3:1-5 (NASB) [SUP]1 [/SUP]"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. [SUP]2 [/SUP]'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. [SUP]5 [/SUP]'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

What happened to those that didn't overcome? Juuuuust wondering.....

Jesus said this , & I believe Him.

 

[GaryA]

yeah...the moon, she bring out dah crazy in some folks

LOL ( "I can relate!" )

I could never be an astronaut --- or anything else that might prevent me from rubbing / scratching my face with my hand(s) at-any-moment... I have really sensitive skin ( or, nerve endings ) - especially the skin of my face / head. A gnat can "light" on my forehead - stay one second - and then fly away -- and - more often than not, I think - I can still "feel it" ( as a form of itching ) for the next 20-30 minutes. ( I can also "rub / scratch it" to help make it 'fade' faster. ) It is a common [ enough ] thing for me... Walking into unseen spider webs really "drives me nuts"...

 

[GaryA]

Unless of course an OSAS proponent wants to explain each word in what it says in 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:14, and 2 Peter 2:1, 14. I mean honestly. I cannot understand how you can not read those passages and have them mean something different than what they say plainly.

The interesting thing is - the extent of variation in what 'plainly' is to different people...

 

[GaryA]

I do not believe you and or anyone else here as provided a proper explanation on the following verses that I have provided.

Perhaps I may be able to give explanation to your query later on --- after I have "caught up" with the end of the thread...

 

[GaryA]

... because some on here have an issue with only reading part of what a person posts.

There are many on CC who seem to have this problem...

 

[GaryA]

... a person is only sealed by the Holy Spirit when they continue in the faith of Jesus Christ.

No.

The base-level definition of 'born-again' is "sealed by the Holy Spirit"...

"A person is sealed by the Holy Spirit when they are born again."

Rather -- a person is 'born-again' when they are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Budman]

No. There is no teaching in the Word that says you can sin and still be saved. Nowhere does it ever teach that.

The Scriptures say be ye angry and sin not and do not give place to the devil. However, what you are saying is you are going to sin no matter what at some point because of some fallen nature. So the Scripture that says, "be ye angry and sin not" cannot be applied to what you believe because you cannot ever truly "be angry and sin not." Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. Jesus would surely be pulling a cruel joke on the woman if she couldn't actually do what Jesus told her to do. That would be like telling her to jump off a cliff with the expectation that gravity is not going to effect. We even see the apostle John tell us, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not." So why is John writing to us? He says he writes these things unto us because we are not to sin. Jesus said to the Pharisees, Very truly I tell you, .everyone who sins, is a slave to sin" (John 8:34 NIV). Read Ephesians 4:17-27. It talks about how we used to be sinners but we are not that way anymore. Also Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of our eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you (Romans 6:14). How can sin not have dominion over you if you still have a fallen nature that still sins? Also, Jesus defined repentance for us in the Scriptures, too. For Jesus said the Ninevites shall rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to the end of Jonah chapter 3, you would see that the Ninevites had turned from their wicked ways as a part of their repentance. This is essentially saying to a person to.... "sin not." Not sure how you think the Biblle says otherwise.

*sigh*


Jason, I'm going to give you your greatest desire. I'm going to tell you exactly what you want to hear.

Are you ready? Here we go....


Oh Jason, you are such a warrior for Christ! Spending hour after hour, day after day, on Christian Chat, working tirelessly to correct all of the heathens here who actually believe their salvation is based entirely on Christ. You are an inspiration! If only we could be as holy and righteous as you are! So sinless, and yet so humble!

God must have abundant rewards waiting for you, as you've struggled so hard at keeping your salvation with all of your good and marvelous works!

It must break your heart so, to deal with all of these wretched sinners at CC who have not achieved your standard of perfection! How lazy and worthless they are in comparison! And how strong you are to stand up to all the attacks from ignorant posters who attempt to actually use the Bible against you! Don't they understand that you are a master of the scriptures? That you truly have the key to understanding everything the Bible says? Only you can interpret the word rightly!

It must pain you when they won't accept your wise teachings! Surely God will give you a martyrs welcome when you finally work your way to heaven!

You must be so proud that God esteems you more than these groveling, sinning, so-called "Christians." If they were actually believers, they would be exactly like you!

I am so happy to be on the same planet as you - a modern day prophet - sounding the alarm to a sleeping world.



How's that? Feel better now?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They are not faulty arguments E.G., as you as always are putting things out of order.

Faith comes by hearing the word, not from repentance, and a person will not even know they have to repent of their sins unless they hear the Word of God first. Then and only then after hearing the word and trusting in what it said will they know to repent of sins.

Well that is where your wrong.

Where you are right, that faith comes by hearing. Your wrong in that faith could ever occur before one repents. Again, further proof your trying to make an allegory of a word and not the literal interpretation.

I can hear I am an enemy of God, I can hear I am condemned because I have sinned against God. I can hear I can not save myself, and I am not worthy of Gods grace, I can here all these things which God calls sin, which I have done and are still doing.

Until I change from my fleshly state (I do not believe any of it) to Gods actuality (these things are actually true. or in other words, I agree with God on all point) I can NEVER have TRUE faith That God will save my based on a gift (eternal life) he is offering through his son.

You see, thats why I say you legalists have yet to repent. You think you can still save yourself. Thus you have not repented. Your faith is NOT IN CHRIST, and his work and his power. it is inn YOUR ABILITY to do whatever you claim one has to do.

You can argue till your blue in the face dude, like Jason here has been doing, but the ONLY people you will convince is yourself.

You will never convince a person who has experienced true repentance, and true faith, and the true love of God in their lives of your works based, self righteous gospel. it will be impossible



That is where you are wrong about repentance, as in all places in the NT repentance is paired with turning away from the sinful nature we once walked in to be a new creation in Christ walking by the Spirit.

Then you keep acting like even after being born again a person can not keep God's 10 Commandments.
The Holy Spirit that is in us can not deny Himself and therefore can not break those commands, and the bible says only if you are drawn away by your own lusts can you sin and if you let that sin get full grown and control you again it will lead to spiritual death.

And no baptism is a righteous work of Christ because it is one of His commands we are told to keep because it is part of the obedience to receive the Holy Spirit, it is not a work of our own to earn salvation. If it is commanded by Jesus it is His works and not ours that must be done for salvation.

What you and others do is misuse what Ephesians 2:8-9 of saved by grace through faith and not by our own personal works, and try to apply that works to the Lords commands as well that He said has to be done. For you can not understand this passage without knowing Romans 5:6-10, for the grace that God showed that requires no work was that while we were still sinners and underserving He sent Jesus in the flesh to be crucified and die for our sins.

None of us were deserving of the Lord dying to pay the dept for our sins, but God did this out of His love for us.

The faith in Jesus now that puts us under that grace is an active faith that does require obedience and action or it is considered a dead faith.


Wrong again about baptism as the burial with Christ is the immersion in water, as when one is immersed in the water they are immersed in His death. Then when we rise out of the water we are risen in the Spirit as a symbol of His resurrection.
Water is the symbol of His death, and risen in the Spirit is the symbol of His resurrection !!!

The Pharisees did not make laws prerequisite for salvation, they corrupted and twisted the law for personal gain, and added additional stumbling blocks on others without helping them to overcome them. The Pharisees were self-righteous, not walking in the righteousness of Christ !!!

Taking a direct command from the Lord our God and telling others they don't have to obey it, is telling people they can be disobedient and still have salvation. That is contradictory to what the bible teaches as it says the disobedient servant will be appointed a place with the unbelievers in the lake of fire (Luke 12).

Look again at the order from Acts 2:38 from the Apostle Peter;

Peter said to them,

"Repent,
(1st step: repent of our sins)

and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;
(2nd step: H2O baptism that was commanded in Matthew 28:19, and Mark 16:16)

and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(3rd step: Then after those do you receive the Holy Spirit.)
[/QUOTE]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Repentance is not just a change in mind !!!

Just agreeing that lying is a sin is not enough for a true repentance, you also have to stop lying..........

Once again the bible shows if you say you have repented then turn around and continue doing it, then your repentance was not a true repentance. As the bible says you have to produce fruit keeping with repentance, which means your actions to stop committing that sin and to walk properly is fruit kept with repentance.

No we are not mocking God about repenting multiple times, as Jesus gave us a worldly example of how repentance works and He did not show only a one time repentance;

Luke 17:3-4

3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you,[b] saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

Lord Jesus never taught a one time repentance, that was made up by man !!!

Your right,

Repentance is COMPLETE HUMILITY. (something most legalists can not fathom. It takes the work of God. like it took to break a man names saul, who became paul)

It is not a I did a sin, and I am sorry and I will try not to do it again.

It is this is me, I can not change myself. so I need God to change me, so I will turn and follow him, and not myself.

that goes against human nature my friend. thats why your allegorical interpretation of repentance is so easy to grasp. Humans can easily do it. But Gods form, It takes a work of God in you to do it.. thats why SO FEW will do it (enter by the narrow Gate)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I don't care if they get mad at me, call me names, and belittle and condemn me by their words.
For I will never budge form the Lord our God's truth in His word, and the word is correct when it says and shows false doctrines will blind those who are in them to the truth. No matter how many times we can show them how they flip flop scriptures around to place things out of order they still refuse to see it........

I will always stand up for God's truth and will not be swayed by the treatment of others, nor will I stop rebuking and reproving others by His Word when the Word gives us that right to do so !!!

sadly you and just me will take your pride to Jesus one day and he will reject your self righteousness. Unless you repent before the end of your life here on earth. (god is patient with all people, even the hard headed)

Dude no one is angry at you, And you have not rebuked anyone, your rebuke falls on deaf ears, because like Just me here who preaches law. It is powerless to those who have experienced first Hand the grace and love and forgiveness of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow I'm late to reply...and the conversation is clearly moved on but I just want to clarify...






I appreciate both of your replies, but maybe we have two different definitions of the word repent.

What I meant was there was no *action* performed by the thief... but surely the thief made a confession of faith. The way I understand repentance is to turn away from sin. Since sin is an *action* of breaking God's law and not a *status*, to turn away from sin (i.e. repent) is to perform acts of obedience to God and not sin. But the thief didn't have anymore time to "stop sinning" and to "live righteously". He was already in judgment; dying with Christ on his cross. There was no action he could perform that would save himself.

That would make the gospel a gospel of works, and not grace then.

We have faith in God first. THEN by our faith actions come.

We do not take acts of righteousness first, then get saved.

Paul makes this clear in his letter to titus, it is not our works of righteousness which we are saved, but by his mercy. To repent, is to agree with God and actually RECEIVE his gift in faith.

Then HE SAVED YOU, and EMPOWERS you to do work. (eph 2: 10)