By Works

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know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Its not that the bible is in disagreement with itself.
It is only your understanding that does not stand up because you consider one verse to be at odds with what you are thinking the others are saying.

Everything you do is works!
They can be the works after the flesh pursuing your lusts and the pride of your own reason.
They can be the works after the law pursuing your self righteousness.
They can be the works after faith pursuing the love of God.
The truth is, I don't have just one supporting verse but MANY.
And I never said the bible disagrees with itself, you did.
And it is not I who doesn't understand what faith is and how it works, but many here on CC who don't.
Can you even tell me what faith is?
I know you can tell me how it works, if you disagree with me.
Without a corresponding work to said faith, faith alone, is dead.
And all the things Christians normally do, such as going to church, reading the bible, praying, and the like are NOT works of faith, but works of the law in the faith, belief, or doctrine of the church.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Abraham was justified/acquitted, through his act of faith, by offering Isaac as his sacrifice to God. He was NOT justified when he believed God, but accounted righteous.
As Paul said in Rom 10:10, "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness,..."
He did NOT say, 'believeth unto justification'.
It appears to me that you are splitting hairs. Either we are justified before God or else we are not. There is no middle ground. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (Abraham was not justified "accounted as righteous" by works) 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

So you believe that one can believe unto righteousness, yet not be justified? :unsure: Other translations of Romans 10:10 say believe and justified.

The ESV transition reads - “For with the heart one believes and is justified..”

The RSV reads - “For man believes with his heart and so is justified..”

The NRSV reads - “For one believes with the heart and so is justified..”

The NIV reads - “For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified..”
 
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And all the things Christians normally do, such as going to church, reading the bible, praying, and the like are NOT works of faith, but works of the law in the faith, belief, or doctrine of the church.
Do you attend worship services because you have to or because you can? Is it a requirement for Christians or a gift?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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It appears to me that you are splitting hairs. Either we are justified before God or else we are not. There is no middle ground. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (Abraham was not justified "accounted as righteous" by works) 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

So you believe that one can believe unto righteousness, yet not be justified? :unsure: Other translations of Romans 10:10 say believe and justified.

The ESV transition reads - “For with the heart one believes and is justified..”

The RSV reads - “For man believes with his heart and so is justified..”

The NRSV reads - “For one believes with the heart and so is justified..”

The NIV reads - “For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified..”
Some people believed that, under the Law of Moses, righteousness and justification happen separately.

But yes, under the gospel of grace that is revealed thru Paul, they occur at the same time, once you believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Do you attend worship services because you have to or because you can? Is it a requirement for Christians or a gift?
That is exactly what I am getting at.
You do things, not only because you want to, but because you know you can do, whatever it is.
Whether it be giving to the church or the poor, praising or worshiping, praying or teaching, everything you in your own strengths or abilities, is most likely a work of the law and NOT a work of or done in faith.
No one can save themselves, if they are lost, because they don't have that power or ability, and neither do you have the ability to cast out a spirit, without the power of God doing it through you.
The lowest form of faith is faith in the natural.
And the lowest form of a "work of faith" is acting on said faith in the natural.
You plunk down on a chair without thought because experience has taught you, it will hold your weight.
Your faith is, "the chair will hold my weight", and your act of faith is, sitting on the chair without any doubt.
You have observed these things in the natural, and so your faith is in the natural, but try believing and acting on one of God's promises on something that DEFIES the natural course of things.

Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye [have already] received, and ye shall have.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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It appears to me that you are splitting hairs. Either we are justified before God or else we are not. There is no middle ground. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (Abraham was not justified "accounted as righteous" by works) 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

So you believe that one can believe unto righteousness, yet not be justified? :unsure: Other translations of Romans 10:10 say believe and justified.

The ESV transition reads - “For with the heart one believes and is justified..”

The RSV reads - “For man believes with his heart and so is justified..”

The NRSV reads - “For one believes with the heart and so is justified..”

The NIV reads - “For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified..”
Those versions are not literal interpretations, but interpreting what they believe to be the intent or meaning of the bible.
Either way, they all have it wrong.
The literal translation of that verse renders it as "righteousness", not justified.
In ever instant, G1343 is interpreted as "righteousness", all 92 times in the KJV, and G1344 is interpreted as justified, 38 of the 40 times in the same version.

Rom 10:10 For G1063 with the heart G2588 man believeth G4100 unto G1519 righteousness; G1343

And as you can see, G1343 is written and NOT G1344.
You seem to have a difficult time admitting being wrong and acknowledging others to be correct.
Again, check the old testament, and see just how many people God justified. At least of what is written.
The answer is NONE!
Until James pointed out Abraham's act of faith.
So it could be said of all who did acts of faith that they were justified before God, but those who just followed the law only attained righteous status.
For the most part, the only ones who justified men, were other men. Again, as far as what is written.
And what you call, "splitting of hairs", God calls it "rightly dividing the word". and "like a man which built a house, and dug deep, and laid the foundation on the rock".
Again, one is justified through an act of faith, and righteous by believing only, and/or doing good deeds and living right.
And by the way, even as we can be chastised by God for more than one thing, we can also be justified for more than one thing as well.
And I have to say this again, as you continue to treat James' works the same as that of Paul's, when they are not the same.
Paul is referring to many works of the law, as in, doing right things or living right.
Jame is NOT referring to MANY works, but ONE WORK PER FAITH.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Those versions are not literal interpretations, but interpreting what they believe to be the intent or meaning of the bible.
Either way, they all have it wrong.
The literal translation of that verse renders it as "righteousness", not justified.
I had a feeling you were going to say that. Everyone has it wrong except you. If a person is accounted as righteous before God, then they are justified before God. Period.
In ever instant, G1343 is interpreted as "righteousness", all 92 times in the KJV, and G1344 is interpreted as justified, 38 of the 40 times in the same version.
Are you KJV only? That would explain a lot.

Rom 10:10 For G1063 with the heart G2588 man believeth G4100 unto G1519 righteousness; G1343

And as you can see, G1343 is written and NOT G1344.
So what. The definition of justified is the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal. According to your logic then, when Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:6, there was no act of pronouncing righteous acquittal for Abraham and he remained a lost man (not justified before God) for several more years later until Genesis 22, when he offered up Isaac on the altar. The end result of that logic is salvation by works.

You seem to have a difficult time admitting being wrong and acknowledging others to be correct.
I could say the same thing about you.

Again, check the old testament, and see just how many people God justified. At least of what is written.
The answer is NONE!
So everyone remained lost in the Old Testament and not a single person was justified before God in the Old Testament according to you? Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David (from the Old Testament) also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Until James pointed out Abraham's act of faith.
So it could be said of all who did acts of faith that they were justified before God, but those who just followed the law only attained righteous status.
So according to you, "justified by works" equates to "saved by works?" So a man can be righteous, but not justified? Interesting. Can a man also be saved, but not have eternal life?

For the most part, the only ones who justified men, were other men. Again, as far as what is written.
And what you call, "splitting of hairs", God calls it "rightly dividing the word". and "like a man which built a house, and dug deep, and laid the foundation on the rock".
Those who rightly divide the word of truth understand that man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law/saved by grace through faith not works. (Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Again, one is justified through an act of faith, and righteous by believing only, and/or doing good deeds and living right.
One is only justified through an act of faith in the "sense" of being "shown to be righteous," (James 2:21,24) but not in the sense of being accounted as righteous. Remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

And by the way, even as we can be chastised by God for more than one thing, we can also be justified for more than one thing as well.
Again, only in the sense of being "shown to be righteous."

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

And I have to say this again, as you continue to treat James' works the same as that of Paul's, when they are not the same.
This type of flawed logic (which Roman Catholics also teach) leads to saved by "these works" (works of faith/good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) which is a bogus argument, as I already pointed out in posts #67, #93, #99 and #100, but unfortunately, what I have explained to you just continues to go right over your head. :(

Paul is referring to many works of the law, as in, doing right things or living right.
Jame is NOT referring to MANY works, but ONE WORK PER FAITH.
Paul and James are both referring to works which cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law. (James 2:15-16; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10)
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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I had a feeling you were going to say that.
Everyone has it wrong except you.
But of course, would anyone expect any less from such greatness?
Stand back, lest thou be consumed in my brightness.:LOL:

If a person is accounted as righteous before God, then they are justified before God. Period.
Are you KJV only? That would explain a lot.
No, that is not correct.
If a person is accounted righteous, they are not necessarily justified, but if they are justified before God, then they are definitely righteous.
The KJB is my favorite version, but like you, I have, look at, and study from a laundry list of various translations.

So what. The definition of justified is the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal. According to your logic then, when Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:6, there was no act of pronouncing righteous acquittal for Abraham and he remained a lost man (not justified before God) for several more years later until Genesis 22, when he offered up Isaac on the altar. The end result of that logic is salvation by works.
There was no eternal life or salvation under the old covenant.
When people died in the old testament times, they went to the center of the earth, NOT heaven.
I'm sure you know that.
No, not salvation by works, but a work, and after that, they will either be justified by each work or word spoken, or condemned in the natural.
It is written, "faith without a corresponding work is dead", or another way you could say that verses is, "faith without speaking God's word is lifeless, useless, and dead.

So everyone remained lost in the Old Testament and not a single person was justified before God in the Old Testament according to you? Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David (from the Old Testament) also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Again, there was no promise of salvation in the old testament.
There was righteousness through the law, but no eternal life in heaven.
Back then, God was the almighty Jehovah, where today we call Him Father.
Still the same God, only there was no sonship.

So according to you, "justified by works" equates to "saved by works?" So a man can be righteous, but not justified? Interesting. Can a man also be saved, but not have eternal life?
It is according to scripture, not me, of which, you apparently are unable to see.
I will give you a different understanding of what a work of faith is.
A work of faith defies both natural logic and the course of nature.
Such as Peter pulling the man to his feet BEFORE there were any signs of him being healed.
THAT was and act or WORK of faith.
It defied and went against human logic and reasoning, as well against what he could see with his natural eyes.
Acts of faith work directly against natural or physical law as well as, what many have come to call, REALITY.

Those who rightly divide the word of truth understand that man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law/saved by grace through faith not works. (Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9)
True!!!
I couldn't have said it better or agreed with you more.

One is only justified through an act of faith in the "sense" of being "shown to be righteous," (James 2:21,24) but not in the sense of being accounted as righteous. Remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
What James is showing is, "and these SIGNS shall follow them that BELIEVE OR HAVE FAITH for the signs being performed.
That is the evidence James is referring to.
A woman giving all she had to the treasury, was work of faith, which Jesus pointed out.
Those who gave of the abundance of what they had was only a good work.

This type of flawed logic (which Roman Catholics also teach) leads to saved by "these works" (works of faith/good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) which is a bogus argument, as I already pointed out in posts #67, #93, #99 and #100, but unfortunately, what I have explained to you just continues to go right over your head. :(
If I was talking about works of and under the law, then your assertion might be correct, but I am NOT talking about works of the law, because a work of faith does NOT fall in the same category as works of the law.

Paul and James are both referring to works which cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law. (James 2:15-16; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10)
How is seeking salvation for one's self, moral?
It's NOT moral, it's SELFISH.
I came to Christ out of fear, NOT out of love for God.
That didn't come until AFTER I received Christ as my personal savior.
Also, a work of the law is something you can do of your own strength or ability, where a work of faith, such as receiving Christ and eternal life, is something you cannot do from your own strengths or abilities.
There is a huge difference between the two works.
ONE IS OF YOU AND THE OTHER IS OF GOD.
If you would, let me know please if you still don't see the difference between the two kinds of works.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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But of course, would anyone expect any less from such greatness?
Stand back, lest thou be consumed in my brightness.:LOL:


No, that is not correct.
If a person is accounted righteous, they are not necessarily justified, but if they are justified before God, then they are definitely righteous.
The KJB is my favorite version, but like you, I have, look at, and study from a laundry list of various translations.


There was no eternal life or salvation under the old covenant.
When people died in the old testament times, they went to the center of the earth, NOT heaven.
I'm sure you know that.
No, not salvation by works, but a work, and after that, they will either be justified by each work or word spoken, or condemned in the natural.
It is written, "faith without a corresponding work is dead", or another way you could say that verses is, "faith without speaking God's word is lifeless, useless, and dead.


Again, there was no promise of salvation in the old testament.
There was righteousness through the law, but no eternal life in heaven.
Back then, God was the almighty Jehovah, where today we call Him Father.
Still the same God, only there was no sonship.


It is according to scripture, not me, of which, you apparently are unable to see.
I will give you a different understanding of what a work of faith is.
A work of faith defies both natural logic and the course of nature.
Such as Peter pulling the man to his feet BEFORE there were any signs of him being healed.
THAT was and act or WORK of faith.
It defied and went against human logic and reasoning, as well against what he could see with his natural eyes.
Acts of faith work directly against natural or physical law as well as, what many have come to call, REALITY.


True!!!
I couldn't have said it better or agreed with you more.


What James is showing is, "and these SIGNS shall follow them that BELIEVE OR HAVE FAITH for the signs being performed.
That is the evidence James is referring to.
A woman giving all she had to the treasury, was work of faith, which Jesus pointed out.
Those who gave of the abundance of what they had was only a good work.


If I was talking about works of and under the law, then your assertion might be correct, but I am NOT talking about works of the law, because a work of faith does NOT fall in the same category as works of the law.


How is seeking salvation for one's self, moral?
It's NOT moral, it's SELFISH.
I came to Christ out of fear, NOT out of love for God.
That didn't come until AFTER I received Christ as my personal savior.
Also, a work of the law is something you can do of your own strength or ability, where a work of faith, such as receiving Christ and eternal life, is something you cannot do from your own strengths or abilities.
There is a huge difference between the two works.
ONE IS OF YOU AND THE OTHER IS OF GOD.
If you would, let me know please if you still don't see the difference between the two kinds of works.
Your differentiation and definitions of a work of the law and a work of faith are interesting . . . and you write some good stuff here . . .

But I do not find that Scripture differentiates and defines them the way that you do -- but that is my opinion . . .
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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No, that is not correct.
If a person is accounted righteous, they are not necessarily justified, but if they are justified before God, then they are definitely righteous.
The KJB is my favorite version, but like you, I have, look at, and study from a laundry list of various tr.
I don't agree . . . I would think that if a person is accounted righteous that means they are also clearly justified. Yes, OT has some clear differences from the NT, though . . . but you may have your own opinion . . .
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
But of course, would anyone expect any less from such greatness?
Stand back, lest thou be consumed in my brightness.:LOL:


No, that is not correct.
If a person is accounted righteous, they are not necessarily justified, but if they are justified before God, then they are definitely righteous.
The KJB is my favorite version, but like you, I have, look at, and study from a laundry list of various translations.


.
i will just stop here

you do realise in the Greek. The word translated righteous and justified are basically the same word do you not?

on who is counted righteous is in fact declared justified, ie, innocent of all guilt according the God.
this of course is paid for by Christ death, as he who knew no sin became sin so we may become the righteousness (perfection, or justified) of Christ in him.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Your differentiation and definitions of a work of the law and a work of faith are interesting . . . and you write some good stuff here . . .

But I do not find that Scripture differentiates and defines them the way that you do -- but that is my opinion . . .
Would you mind elaborating by showing me some of the scriptures that don't agree with what I wrote?
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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I don't agree . . . I would think that if a person is accounted righteous that means they are also clearly justified. Yes, OT has some clear differences from the NT, though . . . but you may have your own opinion . . .
The basic difference between the two words is, one is not a lawbreaker, where the other has or IS a lawbreaker, BUT they have been vindicated, and their record of wrongdoings has been forgiven them, expunged, remitted, absolved, removed, cleared, blotted out, excised, taken out of the way, and nailed to the cross.
Those who are righteous, don't break the laws of sin, similar to a citizen of a country never breaking any laws of the land, with no arrests or citation, resulting in them having a clean record. They would be called and considered a law abiding or righteous person.
On the other hand, for those who are considered just, or have been justified, are like those who have broken the laws of sin, or to put it in today's perspective, would be similar to those who have broken the laws of the land and have a written criminal record/history, but had a presidential pardon, CLEARING the person and their record of ALL wrongdoings, giving them a fresh start and a new beginning.
To recap, righteousness is where a person doesn't do wrong, where justification is where a person has done wrong, but are cleared of ALL said wrongdoings.
That didn't happen in the old testament.
There sins were covered, but not cleared.
The only people who were justified in the old testament were the ones who were found not guilty or cleared by man through judicial proceedings.
Those who lived right, according to the law, were considered righteous, but even Job, though God called him an upright man, perfect in all his way, still NEVER said Job was a just man.
To put it simply, justification comes through acts of faith, for it is written, "and the just shall live by faith".
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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i will just stop here

you do realise in the Greek. The word translated righteous and justified are basically the same word do you not?

on who is counted righteous is in fact declared justified, ie, innocent of all guilt according the God.
this of course is paid for by Christ death, as he who knew no sin became sin so we may become the righteousness (perfection, or justified) of Christ in him.
I suppose they would be similar to the words, affect and effect.
Similar but still different, not only in spelling but in definition as well.
Being righteous is of the law, where being justified is of and by faith, for the just, NOT THE RIGHTEOUS, shall live by faith.
 
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I suppose they would be similar to the words, affect and effect.
Similar but still different, not only in spelling but in definition as well.
Being righteous is of the law, where being justified is of and by faith, for the just, NOT THE RIGHTEOUS, shall live by faith.
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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I don't agree . . . I would think that if a person is accounted righteous that means they are also clearly justified. Yes, OT has some clear differences from the NT, though . . . but you may have your own opinion . . .
You are correct. I was curious and ran a search of all verses that contain "righteous" and its derivatives and then searched for "just" and its derivatives in them, to get to the bottom of it. Justification is always declared before judges. Justification before God is God's judgment, whether final judgment of soul, or during life, awarding favor vs calamity, blessing vs curse, etc. God's judgment is giving wages according to works, exalting, smiting down, casting out, lifting up, all that. Justification definition by the Bible itself (in bold):

2 Chronicles 6:23 Then hear thou from heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, by requiting the wicked, by recompensing his way upon his own head; and by justifying the righteous, by giving him according to his righteousness.

So justification (and conversely condemnation) is defined as "act of God's judgment and meting out wages accordingly", in case of justification, wages of righteousness. So unrighteousness predates condemnation and righteousness predates justification. A believer will show fruits of the Spirit which isnt their own work, the just receive the Spirit and conversely His righteousness by faith. And no one can be justified by works because we would all receive death wage for sins committed. And that unrighteous sinner must be buried in baptism because God can't leave a sinner alive. So that's that subtle difference but it doesn't really change things, it's the same people. The righteous are without exception the ones, and also the only ones, who receive justification as the wages of righteousness, regardless of the covenant. Obviously there is no righteous person who is not also justified, either. God sees and judges all things without skipping.

@know1
 
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i will just stop here

you do realise in the Greek. The word translated righteous and justified are basically the same word do you not?

on who is counted righteous is in fact declared justified, ie, innocent of all guilt according the God.
this of course is paid for by Christ death, as he who knew no sin became sin so we may become the righteousness (perfection, or justified) of Christ in him.

We are set free from sin as soon as we are born again.....our past has been dealt with ,gone ,forgotten...in the eyes of God........we then start our journey with the Holy Spirit....after being saved works automatically follow.......after what God gave us in our hearts..we want to please him.......it’s God’s will that we work after salvation......that is my belief.

But we aren’t to boast about our works..we should keep it quiet.
It’s God in us that’s willing us to work...not ourselves...submit to what he’s asking us to do.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I suppose they would be similar to the words, affect and effect.
Similar but still different, not only in spelling but in definition as well.
Being righteous is of the law, where being justified is of and by faith, for the just, NOT THE RIGHTEOUS, shall live by faith.
Nope
not close at all
that’s not how the Greek works
being righteous is not if the law because the law Condemns Everyone. No one has ever been declared righteous by the law.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
We are set free from sin as soon as we are born again.....our past has been dealt with ,gone ,forgotten...in the eyes of God........we then start our journey with the Holy Spirit....after being saved works automatically follow.......after what God gave us in our hearts..we want to please him.......it’s God’s will that we work after salvation......that is my belief.

But we aren’t to boast about our works..we should keep it quiet.
It’s God in us that’s willing us to work...not ourselves...submit to what he’s asking us to do.
You would Never boast of a true work of faith. You boast when your working for self. And that type of work is called self righteous bloody rags type of works. Even for believers

Do we do this works? Yes. That’s why it is great to have a HS who chastens us