Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

[Mem]

Choice even if constrained comes with at least two options of which we might freely choose. God moved first in showing us His love in Christ, and we are left with the choice to receive that as truth, which there is only one of hence the definite article "the' or reject if for any amount of a plethora of lies whose objective is to deny Him, the Truth and the Life.

 

[awelight]

And I showed you why I called my will free multiple times I even countered the defenition you gave by saying I act freely out of necessity or fate all the time, and I am either blessed by those choices or I sufffer because of them

I did not demand you agree with me, You do not that is obvious

It does not mean I did not answer your question.

You have to get off the mindset that because someone disagrees with you. Does nt mean they have not answered you or listened to you.

Okay, what ever dude. You say you answered me, I say you avoided the points in there specific detail. Perhaps as you say I get a little confused when others don't follow some sort of decorum for proper debate.

 

[awelight]

God moves first in many ways..

the word
the holy spirit
his creation (romans 1)
people he has put in my life

I can not just start with one things, it was many things..

Wouldn't it be proper to say that God, knowing that Adam was going to fall, provided a Plan of Salvation. Within this Plan God purposed how the remnant would be redeemed by His Son's sacrifice. Then God Elected those He chose to Salvation.

Would you agree, this is the first move by God - Election?

 

[oyster67]

I get a little confused when others don't follow some sort of decorum for proper debate.

The truth and validity of the Gospel does not hinge on the outcome of this or any other "proper debate".

 

[awelight]

This is where someone needs to say that God lets us know that we are loved and forgiven

I experienced this in a very profound way when I was at or nearing one of the lowest points of my
life, feeling so broken and like such a failure and pretty hopeless and in a lot of emotional pain.

Although I did not believe in that God at the time, so it is one of those things that are a bit paradoxical.

I had gone to a neighbourhood church around Passover at the end of my marriage because they
were showing a movie based on the gospel of Luke, and I was curious to know Who Jesus was.

I did not leave with understanding of Who Jesus was(/is), but I did leave with the knowledge
that God loved me and forgave me even when I could not love or forgive myself, and that was
something I treasured, even as I thought, it's too bad it had to happen in a church -

Along with the experience of His love and forgiveness being imparted to me was also the knowledge that
He knew and understood all of how I had ended up where I was, and that I was undeserving of His love.

Not in a way that was shaming or to make me feel guilty. Just a knowing that I truly was unworthy.

I thought a lot about Jesus right after that, but it was many more years before I came to believe.

Thanks for sharing that with me. I too, can relate to many of the things you posted here. In my case, I really didn't care if God loved me but I did find I had a soft spot in my heart for Jesus. Maybe, not the true Jesus but when I watched things like the Ten Commandments or King of kings, it would make me cry seeing the wonderful things God supposedly had done. But after an hour or two, I didn't really care. Reading the Bible was just a bunch of gobble-de-goop.

Then as I was enjoying my sinful life - without a care in the world - something happened. I am not sure exactly when but I found my self asking questions about various things - things I knew I could only get the answer to in the Bible. I later realized that God at some point had quickened me. I had been born again. What I once cared nothing about, was now my all in all.

 

[oyster67]

God purposed how the remnant would be redeemed by His Son's sacrifice. Then God Elected those He chose to Salvation.

No. Put away Calvin's notebook (or your wild imagination or whatever you get these twisted ideas from) and crack your Bible open. God foreknew that many would reject Him and His Son, but it was neither His plan nor His desire.
2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

 

[awelight]

The truth and validity of the Gospel does not hinge on the outcome of this or any other "proper debate".

No body ever said it did. Why would you even think that?

Biblical debate is for the purpose of growing our knowledge as to the why, what and when. Occasionally, Biblical debate will shine a light on serious error or it may reveal the nature of the fruit on a persons tree. However, none of these things are needed for a persons salvation. They only have to be honest enough to answer one true question:

Do you love the Lord your God, with all of your heart, mind and soul?

If the answer is yes - you will learn the rest as you go along. Hopefully! Though I have been in a lot of churches these days, where a member there could starve to death from the lack of spiritual food. This in direct violation to what our Lord said: If you love me, feed my sheep.

 

[oyster67]

Election?

Election pertains to the Church, not the multitudes of the lost and dying that we are commissioned to reach out to and point to that fountain rich and free which is available to whosoever will come and drink.

 

[HeIsHere]

Then God Elected those He chose to Salvation.

No I would not agree.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

As to the point I was making about Adam not having the authority, I was referring not to his choice but to the fact, that he could not will the punishment out of existence. God was the Sovereign authority.

Adam knew there would be a consequence if he ate. God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, dying he would die.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The words "thou shalt surely die" literally mean "dying you shall die".

While Adam may not have fully comprehended what death was, Adam did know that there would be a consequence if he ate.

God did not want Adam to eat ... in fact God told Adam not to eat. and once Adam ate, God's judgment (dying you shall die) had to follow.

However, God made provision for the redemption of mankind, even though Adam ate after God told him not to eat.
.

 

[awelight]

No. Put away Calvin's notebook (or your wild imagination or whatever you get these twisted ideas from) and crack your Bible open. God foreknew that many would reject Him and His Son, but it was neither His plan nor His desire.
2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

That response, right there, always cracks me up.

Put away Calvin's notebook

It cracks me up, how some of you think it's all about Calvin.

The things that I have learned over the years, are from my studies and the Holy Spirit's assistance in those studies. I have never even read a book by John Calvin. Nor do I pay any attention to his commentaries.

But I will say this, from very early on in my Christian life, like two weeks into believing God's Word, I had already seen the Truth of God's Sovereignty, His electing Grace and the depraved spiritual condition of mankind. It was all there in the Book of John.

I was probably a Christian for about six months before I ever heard of John Calvin and then it was - John Calvin who?

 

[oyster67]

Biblical debate is for the purpose of growing our knowledge

and not for spreading False Doctrine. You seem to have a lot invested in your elitest Calvinistic garbage, but it does not pass for "Biblical Knowledge".

 

[Magenta]

Thanks for sharing that with me. I too, can relate to many of the things you posted here. In my case, I really didn't care if God loved me but I did find I had a soft spot in my heart for Jesus. Maybe, not the true Jesus but when I watched things like the Ten Commandments or King of kings, it would make me cry seeing the wonderful things God supposedly had done. But after an hour or two, I didn't really care. Reading the Bible was just a bunch of gobble-de-goop.

Then as I was enjoying my sinful life - without a care in the world - something happened. I am not sure exactly when but I found my self asking questions about various things - things I knew I could only get the answer to in the Bible. I later realized that God at some point had quickened me. I had been born again. What I once cared nothing about, was now my all in all.

You are welcome I cared about knowing I was loved, perhaps having something to do with having grown up in a large family where we were never shown affection or told we were loved. I did not have just the knowledge of being loved passed on to me in that experience, for it was more like my whole body was filled with the light of His love. It was overwhelming and more love than I had ever felt or experienced in my life, before or since. And along with that came the knowledge that He knew me fully... I entered into a phase of spiritual seeking after that, which engaged me for many years as I worked full time and eventually began working on developing a sideline concerning my main pagan interest, which is what I was called out of in another profound experience fifteen years after that first one. In the meantime I knew God was working in my life, but I was opposed to the Biblical God and Christianity, and anything to do with organized religion; that may have had something to do with my strict religious upbringing, which I rebelled fairly heartily against.

An example of how I knew God was working in my life was while chasing after love, at the end of a relationship, when I sat down to write out my feelings, right away I was so so so tired of feeling the way I did, and a cry rose up as from the depth of my being for God to help me. Within days I was clean and sober after 24 years of drinking and drugging. I lost the desire to use mind and mood altering substances, and began in earnest working on my "recovery." That entailed a lot of meetings in different fellowships and seeking guidance and support from others who also encouraged me to pray, which I did. I relapsed after eight years but was still not a believer at that point. I passed my twelve year milestone not too long ago

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Maybe I should ask you, where do you see God moving first and in what way?

Believers witness to the lost. A child of God loved me enough to talk to me, share God's Word with me, teach me the gospel.

From the time of Adam/Eve, God's Word has been taught by preaching:

Noah is called a preacher of righteousness.

Enoch, great-grandfather of Noah, prophesied in his day.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

A humble believer witnessing to someone is God moving first. That is why it is so imperative that we teach God's Word and not man's wisdom (our own words).
.

 

[awelight]

and not for spreading False Doctrine. You seem to have a lot invested in your elitest Calvinistic garbage, but it does not pass for "Biblical Knowledge".

Your really quite an unpleasant fellow - are you not? Do you think these kind of rants are supposed to accomplish something. Do you think the Lord is looking down on you with a smile, when you act this way?

And for arguments sake, do you not think you will suffer great loss of reward, if you find out that John Calvin was right and so, Polycarp, Augustine, Martin Luther, John Gill, Jonathan Edwards or Arthur Pink?

 

[Magenta]

What I once cared nothing about, was now my all in all.

That was my experience also - So hungry and thirsty for the Truth of God's Word after years and years of shunning it-

 

[awelight]

You are welcome I cared about knowing I was loved, perhaps having something to do with having grown up in a large family where we were never shown affection or told we were loved. I did not have just the knowledge of being loved passed on to me in that experience, for it was more like my whole body was filled with the light of His love. It was overwhelming and more love than I had ever felt or experienced in my life, before or since. And along with that came the knowledge that He knew me fully... I entered into a phase of spiritual seeking after that, which engaged me for many years as I worked full time and eventually began working on developing a sideline concerning my main pagan interest, which is what I was called out of in another profound experience fifteen years after that first one. In the meantime I knew God was working in my life, but I was opposed to the Biblical God and Christianity, and anything to do with organized religion; that may have had something to do with my strict religious upbringing, which I rebelled fairly heartily against.

An example of how I knew God was working in my life was while chasing after love, at the end of a relationship, when I sat down to write out my feelings, right away I was so so so tired of feeling the way I did, and a cry rose up as from the depth of my being for God to help me. Within days I was clean and sober after 24 years of drinking and drugging. I lost the desire to use mind and mood altering substances, and began in earnest working on my "recovery." That entailed a lot of meetings in different fellowships and seeking guidance and support from others who also encouraged me to pray, which I did. I relapsed after eight years but was still not a believer at that point. I passed my twelve year milestone not too long ago

May God continue to work in your life. For your good and His Glory.

 

[Magenta]

May God continue to work in your life. For your good and His Glory.

Thank you! And may God continue to richly bless you also! -

 

[oyster67]

They only have to be honest enough to answer one true question:

Do you love the Lord your God, with all of your heart, mind and soul?

Yes, well said, but not the end of the story...

Do you love your fellow man enough to share what you have found, or do you tell him that he may be an ineligible receiver and therefore have no hope for redemption?

Back in the early days of reformation (when Calvin started tooting his horn) evangelism dropped to an all-time low because people were duped into believing that they had no say in whether salvation was available to them or their neighbors. "If they are in, they are in. If they are out, they are out." No point in wasting one's breath.

Now Calvinism is rearing it's ugly head again, right here on CC.

 

[HeIsHere]

That response, right there, always cracks me up.

Put away Calvin's notebook

It cracks me up, how some of you think it's all about Calvin.

The things that I have learned over the years, are from my studies and the Holy Spirit's assistance in those studies. I have never even read a book by John Calvin. Nor do I pay any attention to his commentaries.

But I will say this, from very early on in my Christian life, like two weeks into believing God's Word, I had already seen the Truth of God's Sovereignty, His electing Grace and the depraved spiritual condition of mankind. It was all there in the Book of John.

I was probably a Christian for about six months before I ever heard of John Calvin and then it was - John Calvin who?

"Calvinism" meaning his ideas are ubiquitous in books, internet, churches etc., so not really a defense.