Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace
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Rather than Calvin being invoked to deny the Gospel and God's Sovereignty perhaps Augustine might be invoked so that Calvin might take a rest.
Augustine taught God's sovereign dominion and election before Calvin.
Augustine observed of Romans 9, “God’s grace does not find but makes those fit to be chosen.”
Romans 9 itself is but part of the New Testament that reiterates God's foreordination of his Elect in God's Gospel.
Yet, that's dismissed as Calvinism when the tenets are discussed.
Perhaps the reason is this Community is predominantly Roman Catholic. The historical opponent class to Reformed doctrine.
Or, perhaps rather than RC, the majority are Arminian. And therein dedicated to their doctrinal acronym, D.A.I.S.Y , and as was Jacobus Arminius, devout opponents of John Calvin.
DAISY=
D: Diminished depravity – Humanity is depraved, but God uses prevenient grace to restore man’s ability to respond to Him.
A: Abrogated election – God bases His election on His foreknowledge of those who freely choose Him.
I: Impersonal atonement – Christ died for everyone, making salvation possible for everyone.
S: Sedentary grace – God calls everyone to salvation, but many freely reject it.
Y: Yieldable justification – The saved can fall from grace and lose their salvation.
Then there's Molinism's flower, the rose.
MOLINISM: ROSES*
R: Radical depravity – Every aspect of humanity is depraved, but we are not always as bad as we could be.
O: Overcoming grace – God’s grace is persistent in the life of the believer, but it can be resisted.
S: Sovereign election – God desires the salvation of all, but our salvation is based on His choice not ours.
E: Eternal life – God grants believers eternal security in their salvation.
S: Singular redemption – Christ died sufficiently for all people, but efficiently only for the saved.
2017: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...eological-flower-tulip-roses-or-daisy.153508/
More evidence I think of how mans predilection to exercise control even in the realm of divine messaging,the Bible, so to manufacture compilations of the actual Gospel,rework it as it were,to make the Gospel the domain of the man that compiles the denominational construct.
Jesus brought God's good news.Paul inspired to elaborate to a changing world the very same, were deemed to need further assistance by men who thought to interpret a holy message into the realm of secular properties and controls.
Methodist Christian. Presbyterian Christian. Calvinist Christian.Lutheran Christian.Arminian Christian, and so forth.
Is it all that surprising holding to scripture as Christ's Elect, again see Romans 9 for a synopsis of God's purposed Gospel, meets rancor and resistance from Arminian Christians, Calvinist Christians, Baptist Christians,and so forth.
When there were no denominations established by the Lord God nor Jesus the Christ, who was a Jew fulfilling the Old Testament prophecy of Messiah.
We were first called Christians in Antioch. Acts 11. Long after Jesus returned to his Heaven.
On this site, read what we've said to one another, how some of us comport ourselves arguing our understanding of God's message as ones who claim God's Holy Spirit indwells them and leads them to speak.
And as some insist they are collaborators with God in saving themselves into a covenant, a salvation, that they can also choose to abandon.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
Ephesians 2
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Christ's people know him. And he knows every hair on our head,and our name before he made the world.
There is only one sovereign God having dominion over and within his creation and created. He does not need our help to let him keep his word.
You shall know them by how they behave while claiming to know that.
Augustine taught God's sovereign dominion and election before Calvin.
Augustine observed of Romans 9, “God’s grace does not find but makes those fit to be chosen.”
Romans 9 itself is but part of the New Testament that reiterates God's foreordination of his Elect in God's Gospel.
Yet, that's dismissed as Calvinism when the tenets are discussed.
Perhaps the reason is this Community is predominantly Roman Catholic. The historical opponent class to Reformed doctrine.
Or, perhaps rather than RC, the majority are Arminian. And therein dedicated to their doctrinal acronym, D.A.I.S.Y , and as was Jacobus Arminius, devout opponents of John Calvin.
DAISY=
D: Diminished depravity – Humanity is depraved, but God uses prevenient grace to restore man’s ability to respond to Him.
A: Abrogated election – God bases His election on His foreknowledge of those who freely choose Him.
I: Impersonal atonement – Christ died for everyone, making salvation possible for everyone.
S: Sedentary grace – God calls everyone to salvation, but many freely reject it.
Y: Yieldable justification – The saved can fall from grace and lose their salvation.
Then there's Molinism's flower, the rose.
MOLINISM: ROSES*
R: Radical depravity – Every aspect of humanity is depraved, but we are not always as bad as we could be.
O: Overcoming grace – God’s grace is persistent in the life of the believer, but it can be resisted.
S: Sovereign election – God desires the salvation of all, but our salvation is based on His choice not ours.
E: Eternal life – God grants believers eternal security in their salvation.
S: Singular redemption – Christ died sufficiently for all people, but efficiently only for the saved.
2017: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...eological-flower-tulip-roses-or-daisy.153508/
More evidence I think of how mans predilection to exercise control even in the realm of divine messaging,the Bible, so to manufacture compilations of the actual Gospel,rework it as it were,to make the Gospel the domain of the man that compiles the denominational construct.
Jesus brought God's good news.Paul inspired to elaborate to a changing world the very same, were deemed to need further assistance by men who thought to interpret a holy message into the realm of secular properties and controls.
Methodist Christian. Presbyterian Christian. Calvinist Christian.Lutheran Christian.Arminian Christian, and so forth.
Is it all that surprising holding to scripture as Christ's Elect, again see Romans 9 for a synopsis of God's purposed Gospel, meets rancor and resistance from Arminian Christians, Calvinist Christians, Baptist Christians,and so forth.
When there were no denominations established by the Lord God nor Jesus the Christ, who was a Jew fulfilling the Old Testament prophecy of Messiah.
We were first called Christians in Antioch. Acts 11. Long after Jesus returned to his Heaven.
On this site, read what we've said to one another, how some of us comport ourselves arguing our understanding of God's message as ones who claim God's Holy Spirit indwells them and leads them to speak.
And as some insist they are collaborators with God in saving themselves into a covenant, a salvation, that they can also choose to abandon.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
Ephesians 2
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Christ's people know him. And he knows every hair on our head,and our name before he made the world.
There is only one sovereign God having dominion over and within his creation and created. He does not need our help to let him keep his word.
You shall know them by how they behave while claiming to know that.
Rather than Calvin being invoked to deny the Gospel and God's Sovereignty perhaps Augustine might be invoked so that Calvin might take a rest.
Augustine taught God's sovereign dominion and election before Calvin.
Augustine observed of Romans 9, “God’s grace does not find but makes those fit to be chosen.”
Romans 9 itself is but part of the New Testament that reiterates God's foreordination of his Elect in God's Gospel.
Yet, that's dismissed as Calvinism when the tenets are discussed.
Perhaps the reason is this Community is predominantly Roman Catholic. The historical opponent class to Reformed doctrine.
Or, perhaps rather than RC, the majority are Arminian. And therein dedicated to their doctrinal acronym, D.A.I.S.Y , and as was Jacobus Arminius, devout opponents of John Calvin.
DAISY=
D: Diminished depravity – Humanity is depraved, but God uses prevenient grace to restore man’s ability to respond to Him.
A: Abrogated election – God bases His election on His foreknowledge of those who freely choose Him.
I: Impersonal atonement – Christ died for everyone, making salvation possible for everyone.
S: Sedentary grace – God calls everyone to salvation, but many freely reject it.
Y: Yieldable justification – The saved can fall from grace and lose their salvation.
Then there's Molinism's flower, the rose.
MOLINISM: ROSES*
R: Radical depravity – Every aspect of humanity is depraved, but we are not always as bad as we could be.
O: Overcoming grace – God’s grace is persistent in the life of the believer, but it can be resisted.
S: Sovereign election – God desires the salvation of all, but our salvation is based on His choice not ours.
E: Eternal life – God grants believers eternal security in their salvation.
S: Singular redemption – Christ died sufficiently for all people, but efficiently only for the saved.
2017: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...eological-flower-tulip-roses-or-daisy.153508/
More evidence I think of how mans predilection to exercise control even in the realm of divine messaging,the Bible, so to manufacture compilations of the actual Gospel,rework it as it were,to make the Gospel the domain of the man that compiles the denominational construct.
Jesus brought God's good news.Paul inspired to elaborate to a changing world the very same, were deemed to need further assistance by men who thought to interpret a holy message into the realm of secular properties and controls.
Methodist Christian. Presbyterian Christian. Calvinist Christian.Lutheran Christian.Arminian Christian, and so forth.
Is it all that surprising holding to scripture as Christ's Elect, again see Romans 9 for a synopsis of God's purposed Gospel, meets rancor and resistance from Arminian Christians, Calvinist Christians, Baptist Christians,and so forth.
When there were no denominations established by the Lord God nor Jesus the Christ, who was a Jew fulfilling the Old Testament prophecy of Messiah.
We were first called Christians in Antioch. Acts 11. Long after Jesus returned to his Heaven.
On this site, read what we've said to one another, how some of us comport ourselves arguing our understanding of God's message as ones who claim God's Holy Spirit indwells them and leads them to speak.
And as some insist they are collaborators with God in saving themselves into a covenant, a salvation, that they can also choose to abandon.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
Ephesians 2
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Christ's people know him. And he knows every hair on our head,and our name before he made the world.
There is only one sovereign God having dominion over and within his creation and created. He does not need our help to let him keep his word.
You shall know them by how they behave while claiming to know that.
Augustine taught God's sovereign dominion and election before Calvin.
Augustine observed of Romans 9, “God’s grace does not find but makes those fit to be chosen.”
Romans 9 itself is but part of the New Testament that reiterates God's foreordination of his Elect in God's Gospel.
Yet, that's dismissed as Calvinism when the tenets are discussed.
Perhaps the reason is this Community is predominantly Roman Catholic. The historical opponent class to Reformed doctrine.
Or, perhaps rather than RC, the majority are Arminian. And therein dedicated to their doctrinal acronym, D.A.I.S.Y , and as was Jacobus Arminius, devout opponents of John Calvin.
DAISY=
D: Diminished depravity – Humanity is depraved, but God uses prevenient grace to restore man’s ability to respond to Him.
A: Abrogated election – God bases His election on His foreknowledge of those who freely choose Him.
I: Impersonal atonement – Christ died for everyone, making salvation possible for everyone.
S: Sedentary grace – God calls everyone to salvation, but many freely reject it.
Y: Yieldable justification – The saved can fall from grace and lose their salvation.
Then there's Molinism's flower, the rose.
MOLINISM: ROSES*
R: Radical depravity – Every aspect of humanity is depraved, but we are not always as bad as we could be.
O: Overcoming grace – God’s grace is persistent in the life of the believer, but it can be resisted.
S: Sovereign election – God desires the salvation of all, but our salvation is based on His choice not ours.
E: Eternal life – God grants believers eternal security in their salvation.
S: Singular redemption – Christ died sufficiently for all people, but efficiently only for the saved.
2017: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...eological-flower-tulip-roses-or-daisy.153508/
More evidence I think of how mans predilection to exercise control even in the realm of divine messaging,the Bible, so to manufacture compilations of the actual Gospel,rework it as it were,to make the Gospel the domain of the man that compiles the denominational construct.
Jesus brought God's good news.Paul inspired to elaborate to a changing world the very same, were deemed to need further assistance by men who thought to interpret a holy message into the realm of secular properties and controls.
Methodist Christian. Presbyterian Christian. Calvinist Christian.Lutheran Christian.Arminian Christian, and so forth.
Is it all that surprising holding to scripture as Christ's Elect, again see Romans 9 for a synopsis of God's purposed Gospel, meets rancor and resistance from Arminian Christians, Calvinist Christians, Baptist Christians,and so forth.
When there were no denominations established by the Lord God nor Jesus the Christ, who was a Jew fulfilling the Old Testament prophecy of Messiah.
We were first called Christians in Antioch. Acts 11. Long after Jesus returned to his Heaven.
On this site, read what we've said to one another, how some of us comport ourselves arguing our understanding of God's message as ones who claim God's Holy Spirit indwells them and leads them to speak.
And as some insist they are collaborators with God in saving themselves into a covenant, a salvation, that they can also choose to abandon.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
Ephesians 2
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Christ's people know him. And he knows every hair on our head,and our name before he made the world.
There is only one sovereign God having dominion over and within his creation and created. He does not need our help to let him keep his word.
You shall know them by how they behave while claiming to know that.
if one looks at the proper context of romans 9. There is no support for fatalism at all
Good question. If we delight ourselves in the Lord, He gives us the desires of our hearts. That sounds like will direct desires through an intermediary.
When the Lord is our Shepherd, we do not want. So a true and satisfying possession of Christ leads to all our desires being met in Him.
Hope this doesn't add to the confusion.
When the Lord is our Shepherd, we do not want. So a true and satisfying possession of Christ leads to all our desires being met in Him.
Hope this doesn't add to the confusion.
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Of course Scriptures must harmonize, but above all, they must all conform to Gospel truth. And when verses are not taken out of context (or in isolation) to promote false teachings, all Scriptures will conform to Gospel truth.
So if the Son draws all men to Himself, and the Holy Spirit draws all men to Christ, it follows that the Father will be in perfect harmony with the Son and the Holy Spirit. Because it is the Father who sent the Son into the world to die for our sins, and who desires the salvation of all mankind.
So if the Son draws all men to Himself, and the Holy Spirit draws all men to Christ, it follows that the Father will be in perfect harmony with the Son and the Holy Spirit. Because it is the Father who sent the Son into the world to die for our sins, and who desires the salvation of all mankind.
There is "[that] all THAT" (i.e. "things") and "[that] all WHO" ("persons") ...distinct.
So in John 6:39 [like 6:37a] it says, "that all THAT" (re: "things"... like "throne" Luke 1:32, etc...)
...and in John 6:40 [like 6:37b] it says, "that all WHO" (re: "persons")
Then there is the matter regarding what Jesus prayed in John 17 (just before going to the Cross):
6I did manifest Thy name to the men whom Thou hast given to me out of the world; Thine they were, and to me Thou hast given them, and Thy word they have kept; 7now they have known that all things, as many as Thou hast given to me [perfect indicative], are from Thee, 8because the sayings that Thou hast given to me, I have given [perfect indicative] to them, and they themselves received, and have known truly, that from Thee I came forth, and they did believe that Thou didst send me. 9‘I ask in regard to them; not in regard to the world do I ask, but in regard to those whom Thou hast given [perfect indicative] to me, because Thine they are, 10and all mine are Thine, and Thine [are] mine, and I have been glorified in them; 11and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to [perfect indicative] me, that they may be one as we; 12when[/while] I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given [perfect indicative] to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled.
13‘And now unto Thee I come, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves; 14I have given [perfect indicative] to them Thy word, and the world did hate them, because they are not of the world, as I am not of the world; 15I do not ask that Thou mayest take them out of the world, but that Thou mayest keep them out of the evil. 16‘Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not; 17sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy word is truth; 18as Thou didst send me to the world, I also did send them to the world; 19and for them do I sanctify myself, that they also themselves may be sanctified in truth.
20‘And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me; 21that they all [...]
Do you see how He is distinguishing the ones that God "HAST GIVEN ME [perfect indicative]" and "those who shall be believing in Me THROUGH THEIR WORD"... ?
Totally agree.
And is what I'm endeavoring to point out. = )
So in John 6:39 [like 6:37a] it says, "that all THAT" (re: "things"... like "throne" Luke 1:32, etc...)
...and in John 6:40 [like 6:37b] it says, "that all WHO" (re: "persons")
Then there is the matter regarding what Jesus prayed in John 17 (just before going to the Cross):
6I did manifest Thy name to the men whom Thou hast given to me out of the world; Thine they were, and to me Thou hast given them, and Thy word they have kept; 7now they have known that all things, as many as Thou hast given to me [perfect indicative], are from Thee, 8because the sayings that Thou hast given to me, I have given [perfect indicative] to them, and they themselves received, and have known truly, that from Thee I came forth, and they did believe that Thou didst send me. 9‘I ask in regard to them; not in regard to the world do I ask, but in regard to those whom Thou hast given [perfect indicative] to me, because Thine they are, 10and all mine are Thine, and Thine [are] mine, and I have been glorified in them; 11and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to [perfect indicative] me, that they may be one as we; 12when[/while] I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given [perfect indicative] to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled.
13‘And now unto Thee I come, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves; 14I have given [perfect indicative] to them Thy word, and the world did hate them, because they are not of the world, as I am not of the world; 15I do not ask that Thou mayest take them out of the world, but that Thou mayest keep them out of the evil. 16‘Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not; 17sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy word is truth; 18as Thou didst send me to the world, I also did send them to the world; 19and for them do I sanctify myself, that they also themselves may be sanctified in truth.
20‘And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me; 21that they all [...]
Do you see how He is distinguishing the ones that God "HAST GIVEN ME [perfect indicative]" and "those who shall be believing in Me THROUGH THEIR WORD"... ?
Totally agree.
And is what I'm endeavoring to point out. = )
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I still cannot figure out what exactly we are doing here on this thread.
Laying the blame (on one party or the other) or issuing the credit (on one party or the other)?
As far as I know......these matters of blames and credits will be taken care of at a later date. And we will not be the ones doing the tallying. Among ourselves anyways.
Laying the blame (on one party or the other) or issuing the credit (on one party or the other)?
As far as I know......these matters of blames and credits will be taken care of at a later date. And we will not be the ones doing the tallying. Among ourselves anyways.
I think that observation put into practice would insure no Bible discussion communities would appear on the net.
Discussing scripture is what it should be about.
Availing ones self of opportunity to attack Christians using the launchpad of scripture is what brews the chaos that so often is interjected into our web communities.
And on many sites gives BDF's a bad image. All because of the few who enjoy creating a breeding ground to release the chaos inside.
However, we are warned of that. And we are also prepared to repel. Praise the Lord.
Discussing scripture is what it should be about.
Availing ones self of opportunity to attack Christians using the launchpad of scripture is what brews the chaos that so often is interjected into our web communities.
And on many sites gives BDF's a bad image. All because of the few who enjoy creating a breeding ground to release the chaos inside.
However, we are warned of that. And we are also prepared to repel.
Praise the Lord.
2 Peter 3:9 says God is not willing that any should perish; that should
be enough to tell us that God does not elect any to damnation. -
be enough to tell us that God does not elect any to damnation. -
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