Calvinism and Tulip theology

[Marano]

I can't remember if I told you, but I accepted "Calvinism" before I even knew who John Calvin was. In fact, I've never read much more than quotes from him.

I told my Arminian pastor what I was seeing in Scripture after reading the book of Romans about 10 times. He told me what I was talking about was Calvinism then started telling me about Calvin burning Servetus (not totally true..the Geneva Council executed him and Calvin wanted to behead him)

I left the church not too long after that. He wanted me to be part of the evangelizing team, and I started meeting with them, but I didn't feel comfortable bringing people to a church that taught against eternal security. I figured, why should I stay somewhere that taught something I thought was harmful to new believers? So, I left.

I remember you telling me that, with me it was reading romans 9 I accepted what people called calvinism, I didn't even know calvin or calvinism back then, I hadn't researched and knew nothing about arminianism either, I only came to know these things later.

 

[Marano]

There was one guy in the chat site who changed his mind, from Arminian theology to Reformed theology. So, I guess he's one person who did change his position after some of the Reformed chatters influenced him.

He was previously a charismatic type of person. I remember him telling about being a catcher for some healing services, and a obese woman fell backwards and cut his skin with one of her rings.

You would hope more people would see it with enough scripture shown them.

 

[Depleted]

Winged-nothingness pretty much sums up what goes on in too many pulpits. I honestly believe it is due to the fact they simply cannot get much out of the Bible - they struggle with it, they're burned out with their free will gospel and they are frustrated.

Actually our pastor didn't like studying the Bible at all. He once asked my hubby to teach on Sunday. Hubby chose Romans. You don't get Romans in a mere week, so he felt totally unqualified to teach, and told the pastor that on Sunday.

Not a problem. Pastor winged another sermon on the spot. (And that was the moment I finally figured out I wasn't stupid. I had spent years thinking there was something wrong with me because I could never get what the pastor was talking about. Ends up, he wasn't talking about anything important to get.)

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually our pastor didn't like studying the Bible at all. He once asked my hubby to teach on Sunday. Hubby chose Romans. You don't get Romans in a mere week, so he felt totally unqualified to teach, and told the pastor that on Sunday.

Not a problem. Pastor winged another sermon on the spot. (And that was the moment I finally figured out I wasn't stupid. I had spent years thinking there was something wrong with me because I could never get what the pastor was talking about. Ends up, he wasn't talking about anything important to get.)

Breaks my heart!

A brother today preached and said "Jesus could have come down off the cross if He wanted to." Missionary candidate. So sad!

 

[Sagart]

The doctrines known today as the five points of Calvinism were first conceived in the 16th century, not as a result of advances in the field of biblical exegesis, but as a result of a newly conceived concept—the concept that God is absolutely sovereign. This new concept formed the premise upon which five deductions were based. For example, if God is absolutely sovereign, there is nothing whatsoever that men can do to determine whether they will be saved—either initially or subsequently. Indeed, in this new system of theology, men were viewed as being “totally” depraved. Many hundreds of verses were radically reinterpreted to bring them into harmony with the new theology, and today Calvinists read the Bible and interpret it as they read it based upon those reinterpretations. Consequently, for them, the Bible expressly teaches the five points of Calvinism—and anyone who fails to see them taught in the Bible has a problem.

Some years ago in the early years of my first pastorate, a Presbyterian minister who was an acquaintance of mine came to see me in my office at my church and gave me two brand new books that he had just purchased for me, The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, and Documented by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas, and The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Loraine Boettner. It was not my birthday or Christmas, so I asked him why he purchased the books for me. He replied that he purchased the books for me because they contain basic truths that I will “never get out of the Bible!” And he was right—I never did! I soon purchased Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion, the three-volume theologies by Charles Hodge and by William G. T. Shedd, and the theologies by Louis Berkhof, J. Oliver Buswell, and A. A. Hodge, but none of these Reformed theologians helped me to find in the Bible any of the five points of Calvinism. And neither did anyone else “find them in the Bible” before the 16th century; but the opposing five points are found and taught throughout the entire history of the Church! If the Bible really teaches the five points of Calvinism, why couldn’t anyone find them there before the 16th century? Is the Bible really so poorly written that no one was able to correctly understand it before a French politician named John Calvin came along and explained it to them?

 

[valiant]

The doctrines known today as the five points of Calvinism were first conceived in the 16th century, not as a result of advances in the field of biblical exegesis, but as a result of a newly conceived concept—the concept that God is absolutely sovereign. This new concept formed the premise upon which five deductions were based. For example, if God is absolutely sovereign, there is nothing whatsoever that men can do to determine whether they will be saved—either initially or subsequently. Indeed, in this new system of theology, men were viewed as being “totally” depraved. Many hundreds of verses were radically reinterpreted to bring them into harmony with the new theology, and today Calvinists read the Bible and interpret it as they read it based upon those reinterpretations. Consequently, for them, the Bible expressly teaches the five points of Calvinism—and anyone who fails to see them taught in the Bible has a problem.

Some years ago in the early years of my first pastorate, a Presbyterian minister who was an acquaintance of mine came to see me in my office at my church and gave me two brand new books that he had just purchased for me, The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, and Documented by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas, and The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Loraine Boettner. It was not my birthday or Christmas, so I asked him why he purchased the books for me. He replied that he purchased the books for me because they contain basic truths that I will “never get out of the Bible!” And he was right—I never did! I soon purchased Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion, the three-volume theologies by Charles Hodge and by William G. T. Shedd, and the theologies by Louis Berkhof, J. Oliver Buswell, and A. A. Hodge, but none of these Reformed theologians helped me to find in the Bible any of the five points of Calvinism. And neither did anyone else “find them in the Bible” before the 16th century; but the opposing five points are found and taught throughout the entire history of the Church! If the Bible really teaches the five points of Calvinism, why couldn’t anyone find them there before the 16th century? Is the Bible really so poorly written that no one was able to correctly understand it before a French politician named John Calvin came along and explained it to them?

That is strange. I certainly found them in my Bible (and I am not a Calvinist). I wonder which one you read?

 

[Marano]

The doctrines known today as the five points of Calvinism were first conceived in the 16th century, not as a result of advances in the field of biblical exegesis, but as a result of a newly conceived concept—the concept that God is absolutely sovereign. This new concept formed the premise upon which five deductions were based. For example, if God is absolutely sovereign, there is nothing whatsoever that men can do to determine whether they will be saved—either initially or subsequently. Indeed, in this new system of theology, men were viewed as being “totally” depraved. Many hundreds of verses were radically reinterpreted to bring them into harmony with the new theology, and today Calvinists read the Bible and interpret it as they read it based upon those reinterpretations. Consequently, for them, the Bible expressly teaches the five points of Calvinism—and anyone who fails to see them taught in the Bible has a problem.

Some years ago in the early years of my first pastorate, a Presbyterian minister who was an acquaintance of mine came to see me in my office at my church and gave me two brand new books that he had just purchased for me, The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, and Documented by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas, and The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Loraine Boettner. It was not my birthday or Christmas, so I asked him why he purchased the books for me. He replied that he purchased the books for me because they contain basic truths that I will “never get out of the Bible!” And he was right—I never did! I soon purchased Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion, the three-volume theologies by Charles Hodge and by William G. T. Shedd, and the theologies by Louis Berkhof, J. Oliver Buswell, and A. A. Hodge, but none of these Reformed theologians helped me to find in the Bible any of the five points of Calvinism. And neither did anyone else “find them in the Bible” before the 16th century; but the opposing five points are found and taught throughout the entire history of the Church! If the Bible really teaches the five points of Calvinism, why couldn’t anyone find them there before the 16th century? Is the Bible really so poorly written that no one was able to correctly understand it before a French politician named John Calvin came along and explained it to them?

I find the doctrines of grace all over scripture, I didn't know anything about calvin, calvinism or arminianism, and just by reading romans 9 I came to the conclusion that God is sovereign, any other reading of Romans 9 is exegetically wrong, I on the other hand say that someone has to assume the opposing 5 points and read them into the text for them to believe it.

 

[Sagart]

That is strange. I certainly found them in my Bible (and I am not a Calvinist). I wonder which one you read?

Thank you for your reply.

One does not need to be a “Calvinist” to have been so very strongly influenced by Calvinism that one interprets verses in the Bible based upon the reinterpretations of them by Calvinism. Furthermore, some translations of the Bible were the product of men who were staunchly Reformed in their beliefs. The best known example of such a translation is the NIV and its siblings.

 

[Ariel82]

I understand and accept T and P but the rest I don't see in the Bible.

 

[Ariel82]

Can someone give the Bible verses for "limited atonement"?

I always thought Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Sac49]

I understand and accept T and P but the rest I don't see in the Bible.

In the second post on this subject Magenta does a good job defining each point and adds verses from the Bible backing up each point. This is not a light hearted study and one that requires help drom the Holy Spirit to understand (which we should be praying for any time we study Gods Word). The biggest hang up i have seen in understanding these points is, not understanding the Sovereignty of God. We so much want to be in control that we remove God from His throne and put ourselves upon it. We want to be the sovereign ones, but we arent. I dont remember who wrote it but here is a quote about sovereignty. "Man will allow God to be anywhere but upon His throne".

So the question is...who is sovereign, man or God?

 

[Grace777x70]

There is an aspect of man having authority in some form on this earth - given by God which is a part of why Jesus is called the Son of Man and needed to be a Man-kind being like us. We are made in the likeness of God with the ability to "choose".

Adam was given authority in this earth.

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth" (Gen 1:26-27).


Psalm 8:4-6 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him?

[SUP]5 [/SUP] Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!

[SUP]6 [/SUP] You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,


Psalm 115:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, But the earth He has given to the sons of men.
Man has a partial sovereignty under God's ultimate sovereignty.

This was handed over to satan from Adam.

Luke 4:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

[SUP]6 [/SUP] And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

Jesus won back this.

Matthew 28:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

All of God's ultimate plan and desire will be accomplished through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Man was made in the "like-ness" of God which gives him the sovereignty of choice - just like God but God's ultimate choice will be fulfilled throughout eternity as everything in heaven and earth has been summed up in Christ Himself.

 

[preacher4truth]

Can someone give the Bible verses for "limited atonement"?

Matthew 1:21. And sister, sometimes we have to get past "proof-text" theology where we look for "the verse" and begin to deduce truth from Scripture, put 2 and 2 together &c.

I always thought Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

He did: He died for His people out of every tribe and nation upon this earth, not for the sins of each and every man and woman who have ever lived.

 

[Sagart]

I find the doctrines of grace all over scripture, I didn't know anything about calvin, calvinism or arminianism, and just by reading romans 9 I came to the conclusion that God is sovereign, any other reading of Romans 9 is exegetically wrong, I on the other hand say that someone has to assume the opposing 5 points and read them into the text for them to believe it.

I do not believe that it is appropriate to base one’s theology upon a misunderstanding of one chapter in the Bible taken out of context. In Romans 9:1-29, Paul is arguing that the word of God has not failed, and that God has the right to do as He pleases. He is not arguing against the theology of Judaism, which throughout the time of the Old Testament and continuing through the years between the Old Testament and the founding of the Church, that God surrendered to man some of His sovereignty when He created man with a free will. Indeed, throughout the Hextateuch and much of the rest of the Old Testament we find the Hebrew people repeatedly violating the sovereignty of God, and in Joshua 24:23 we read,

23. “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” (NASB, 1995)

God most certainly did not believe that the Hebrew people were so depraved that they could not, if they so chose to, incline their hearts to Him. Centuries later, the Hebrew people had not changed their belief in man’s free will. For example, we read in Ecclesiasticus (The Wisdom of Sirach),

Ecclesiasticus 15:14. It was he who created humankind in the beginning,
and he left them in the power of their own free choice.
15. If you choose, you can keep the commandments,
and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
16. He has placed before you fire and water;
stretch out your hand for whichever you choose.
17. Before each person are life and death,
and whichever one chooses will be given.
18. For great is the wisdom of the Lord;
he is mighty in power and sees everything;
19. his eyes are on those who fear him,
and he knows every human action.
20. He has not commanded anyone to be wicked,
and he has not given anyone permission to sin. (Apocrypha, New Revised Standard Version)

In the New Testament, we read in Matthew 22:37

37. And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ (NASB, 1995)

In this verse, the Greek word translated as ‘love’ is ἀγαπάω, a volitional love—a love that is a choice! Moreover, Jesus is here quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 in which the Israelites are being commanded by God to love Him. Could it be any clearer that God believed that the Israelites were capable of obeying the command if they chose to obey it?

 

[preacher4truth]

*duplicate post, sorry*

 

[dcontroversal]

Can someone give the Bible verses for "limited atonement"?

I always thought Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

King James Bible
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word world is κόσμου.


New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The word world is κόσμον,

 

[Sagart]

Matthew 1:21. And sister, sometimes we have to get past "proof-text" theology where we look for "the verse" and begin to deduce truth from Scripture, put 2 and 2 together &c.

Jesus Himself pleaded with his audiences to put aside deductive logic, and to think inductively, taking into consideration the works that he did rather than deducing that he was a false prophet because he healed the sick and the lame on the Sabbath.

He did: He died for His people out of every tribe and nation upon this earth, not for the sins of each and every man and woman who have ever lived.

The Scriptures says in John 3:16,

οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

The Greek expression, τὸν κόσμον is never used in the New Testament nor any other ancient Christian literature to mean Christ’s “people out of every tribe and nation upon this earth.” It means what it says, “the world! ” In this context, it speaks “of all humanity, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love.” (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition (2000), revised and edited by Frederick William Danker and based upon Walter Bauer’s lexicon and previous English editions (1957 and 1979) by W. F. Arndt, F. W. Gingrich, and F. W. Danker published by The University of Chicago Press). Jesus died on the cross, shedding His blood, “for the sins of each and every man and woman who have ever lived.”

 

[Johnny_B]

Jesus set us free from slavery and as a free being i have a choice.
A choice to accept Jesus as my new master or to serve the flesh.

​So you read John 8:32 as, So if the Son sets free, you will be free to sin or be free indeed? What you are saying is Jesus is not your Lord, He's your bail bondsmen. You have no concept of what being free from sin means. It does not mean that you'll never sin again or struggle with sin, you are free from the penalty of sin and you will cry out as David did in Psalm 32:1-2 "Blessed is the man that the Lord does not input sin" that's the freedom that Jesus gives. Freedom from the penalty of sin.

When you have come to be wise in the fear of the Lord and understand His fury and anger in wrath towards you and Jesus sets you free, you can only respond by falling in love with Him. If you were to chose sin why would He set you free, if you are going to remain in bondage, He wouldn't.

 

[preacher4truth]

Jesus Himself pleaded with his audiences to put aside deductive logic

Um, not even remotely accurate. Note John 3:10 following, thus your logic is completely refuted. People just don't study, instead they ad lib as you have, and think they've offered truth.

 

[Ariel82]

In the second post on this subject Magenta does a good job defining each point and adds verses from the Bible backing up each point. This is not a light hearted study and one that requires help drom the Holy Spirit to understand (which we should be praying for any time we study Gods Word). The biggest hang up i have seen in understanding these points is, not understanding the Sovereignty of God. We so much want to be in control that we remove God from His throne and put ourselves upon it. We want to be the sovereign ones, but we arent. I dont remember who wrote it but here is a quote about sovereignty. "Man will allow God to be anywhere but upon His throne".

So the question is...who is sovereign, man or God?

I alright with the concept of God on his throne. My issues is trusting men to correctly understand and teach His word and will.

I am especially wary when folks tell me that God didn't really mean the whole world, when He clearly says "whole world" in the Bible.

I don't believe everyone gets to be born again children of God, but I do believe that Jesus undid on the cross what Adam did by eating of the forbidden fruit.

Because Adam's sin effected all of humanity, Jesus act of redemption on the cross effected all of humanity as well.