Calvinism - Total Depravity

[Bladerunner]

I did not say that.

I said I do not get my belief of what others believe based on something written by other men, I like to listen to them, and see what they actually believe.

I am not going to go to an anti calvanist website to try to determine what calvanists believe, I will listen to them (actually have for decades) to determine.

Even if someone I come in contact with says they are calvanist, I will not just assume I know. They may not follow all tenents, and I would be determining they believe something they may not believe.

I agree with you somewhat...but then again, I would go to a Calvinist website, simply to see what their doctrine is.....Does different Calvin websites have different (points) within their doctrine or are they trying to follow the original Doctrines of Calvinism.

It is like I said if all (only) you do is listen to people, then you miss out on the writing of Josephus, Book of Enoch, Jasher, etc.
You miss out on the writing of any history that correlates and gives us insight as to how the Bible affected our previous views of its passages.

The writings of others is the same as listening to them only using your eyes. What I gave you was an article that I believed to be relevant for this discussion. Had I given you a url to this article and not reprinted it, it would have meant that my beliefs may or may not have lined up with the article but I wanted to see what your opinion of it was. You see I use my hearing as well.

 

[garee]

If you are a Calvinist do you believe that God will save you against your will? I know you cannot save yourself but will God force you to be saved if you are elect?

Arminian do you believe that you decided you would be saved? Do you believe that you moved toward God and were saved because you elected yourself through your efforts?

Calvinism cannot yield no self will and salvation by predetermination.

Arminianism cannot yield salvation by mans will and attained by courting Gods favor so as to be worthy of salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Not against ours will but rather according to His. A man must be born from above. If He began the work of salvation he will finish it to the end>

It is like a blue light special. Once he shows us the light, men are strengthened by his power and might taking it by force .

12 `And, from the days of John the Baptist till now, the reign of the heavens doth suffer violence, and violent men do take it by force,

As many as the father gave to the Son they will come, and when they do he will in no wise cast them out.

 

[John146]

Hebrews 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

God's not willing that any should perish. All men were drawn after the cross but not all men receive the gospel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree with you somewhat...but then again, I would go to a Calvinist website, simply to see what their doctrine is.....Does different Calvin websites have different (points) within their doctrine or are they trying to follow the original Doctrines of Calvinism.

It is like I said if all (only) you do is listen to people, then you miss out on the writing of Josephus, Book of Enoch, Jasher, etc.
You miss out on the writing of any history that correlates and gives us insight as to how the Bible affected our previous views of its passages.

The writings of others is the same as listening to them only using your eyes. What I gave you was an article that I believed to be relevant for this discussion. Had I given you a url to this article and not reprinted it, it would have meant that my beliefs may or may not have lined up with the article but I wanted to see what your opinion of it was. You see I use my hearing as well.

better to just go ask someone themselves what they believe,

if you wanted to discuss the article. that would be one thing, but I would not use it to try to figure out what someone believes. That was my point.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If its true that we are dead in sin and will not choose God then how is anyone saved?

who said it was true?

If the dead in sin can not chose God, then no one can be saved, because one can not be made alive until they have faith. As Jesus clearly explains in John 3.

 

[Bladerunner]

better to just go ask someone themselves what they believe,

if you wanted to discuss the article. that would be one thing, but I would not use it to try to figure out what someone believes. That was my point.

WHeeeeeew! What Ever!

 

[nowyouseem033]

1 John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” aka all men

Scripture tells us that Jesus tasted death for every man, not just the “elect”.

Oh dear John. Do you not understand that there were Jewish Christians who still held to beliefs that salvation was for only them and them alone. That being the Jewish race. It is why the apostle John who is Jewish has to say for our sins only but the whole world. Meaning not Jews only but greeks, romans etc etc. If John was meant to say 'every single individual' then honestly please explain and tell me why then he simply doesnt just say that? Why does he have to add and not ours only??? Why did he say and not ours only??? Its so obvious that John is opposing the idea of the Jewish only salvation. Come on John you bear his name for crying out loud and please tell me why he had to say and not ours only? whos he talking to? and why did he say that?

 

[garee]

Hebrews 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

God's not willing that any should perish. All men were drawn after the cross but not all men receive the gospel.

As many as the father gave the Son they will come. All of them are called to repentance. The other all remain unconverted .

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

No power was given to the other all. Therefore the other "all" could not believe God as a work of His faith working in the to both will and do His good pleasure. . .(a imputed righteousness) not of one self.

 

[garee]

who said it was true?

If the dead in sin can not chose God, then no one can be saved, because one can not be made alive until they have faith. As Jesus clearly explains in John 3.

Its His living faith that He gives us that creates new spirit life. Dead men cannot believe. The dead have no spirit life, they cannot do any work .Christ does not give us dead faith, we are born with that.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[nowyouseem033]

Hebrews 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

God's not willing that any should perish. All men were drawn after the cross but not all men receive the gospel.

Yes, everyman without distinction and 2 peter 3:9 read a little on

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its His living faith that He gives us that creates new spirit life. Dead men cannot believe. The dead have no spirit life, they cannot do any work .Christ does not give us dead faith, we are born with that.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

No, that is not true. If a dead person can not have living faith. No one an get to heaven.

Again john 3 is the basis.. Jesus died for all so that whoever believes (has livng faith) is made alive or born again (eternal life)

 

[notmyown]

This does not say God does not call all men, It just says his sheep hear his voice and follow.

Many are called, Few are chosen.

Jesus said in the same passage why those who did not follow Jesus did not follow.

[SUP]35 [/SUP]And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. [SUP]36 [/SUP]But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

Jesus never said he did not chose them, or God did not draw them to himself. (the fact they were there by a miracle jesus performed the previous day proves this)

He said they did not believe. That is what separated them from the ones who saw and believed.

that's right!

I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ (Jn 13:18)


"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." (Jn 15:16)

 

[posthuman]

Depraved means someone who likes evil perversions. Like the Marquis De Sade.

Totally Depraved means the worst excesses of devil worshippers (like the Marquis de Sade)

Are all unsaved human beings like this?

No

Next

another way this is often described is "total inability"

as the result of sin, man in His natural state cannot come to God, nor even choose to, nor does he desire to. he is unable

i.e. "unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God"

 

[FlSnookman7]

While I am not a calvinist there is much scripture supporting it like;1 Peter 2:9

But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;


Ephesians 1:4-5
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Ephesians 1:4

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love

John 6:44

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 8:28

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Ephesians 2:10

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Ephesians 1:11

also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Romans 8:29

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Romans 8:30

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

John 15:16

"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 6:37

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.


There are quite a few more verses supporting it as well. I am under the belief that calvinism and arminianism are 2 sides of the same coin. God's ways are so far above our ways that we tend to try and put Him into isms we can comprehend. The pitiful and sad part begins when we use our very limited knowledge to bash others instead of loving one another and uplifting each other like we are supposed to.

 

[notmyown]

as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;

no one understands;
no one seeks for God.

All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Rom 3:10-18)


it's a stunning indictment.

 

[posthuman]

yep

Unless God did all the work of salvation. Man could have no faith. So God had to give man something to have faith in.. That is the "gift" of God. (namely the cross)

But god gave me faith, and did not allow someone else to have faith even if they wanted to.


No. That is not God. (and the issue I have)

but there is the presumption to judge God again - the issue i have. it's as though this viewpoint says, God cannot have mercy on whom He will, because there is a sense of 'justice' that is higher than God, as though He should be held to it, saying that every man deserves the same measure of mercy, which isn't mercy at all, but lack of justice, and holds an anthropomorphic standard above the Lord. and who are we ((oh man)) to answer back to God?

it's the same thing we have to face with the 'problem of sin' - how is God good if evil exists? and the answer is the same, too: we are man and He is God, trust God, and hope in Him

 

[ZacharyB]

So to the first point the letter T - Total Depravity?

We are totally unable to respond to God in any capacity
until Gods grace awakens our sinful hearts to respond to the gospel.

We are so 'dead in sin' that there is no desire for us to want God at all
unless God overcomes our wicked hearts and transforms us to now be able to love him and want him.

Are these biblical affirmations or not?

There are 25 (or so) NT verses, which teach us that:
(on his own) man in unable to believe Jesus and His gospel, etc.
and there is no desire for us to want God at all.

There are countless people world-wide who have a heart for God,
but have been deceived into believing another religion or a non-Christian cult/sect.

How can we reconcile these things?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

but there is the presumption to judge God again - the issue i have. it's as though this viewpoint says, God cannot have mercy on whom He will, because there is a sense of 'justice' that is higher than God, as though He should be held to it, saying that every man deserves the same measure of mercy, which isn't mercy at all, but lack of justice, and holds an anthropomorphic standard above the Lord. and who are we ((oh man)) to answer back to God?

it's the same thing we have to face with the 'problem of sin' - how is God good if evil exists? and the answer is the same, too: we are man and He is God, trust God, and hope in Him

The term, God can have mercy on who he wills. has nothing to do with salvation. so I would not want to try to twise what pauyl was saying. (he quoted God who was speaking to moses so go there for context) God offers mercy to all. Foor all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. we are all in the same boat whether we believe it or not. and we are all in need of Gods mercy (salvationally speaking)

He predestined however, only to save those he willed to save.

Jesus answers what Gods will was in john 6.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”


So I would just trust God.. and hope in him, According to scripture. faith is the substance of things hoped for. Apart from hope. we can have no faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;

no one understands;
no one seeks for God.

All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Rom 3:10-18)


it's a stunning indictment.

yes, we are all in the same boat.. Thats why jesus had to die for all

 

[eternally-gratefull]

another way this is often described is "total inability"

as the result of sin, man in His natural state cannot come to God, nor even choose to, nor does he desire to. he is unable

i.e. "unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God"

and how is one born again?

John 3: 16, (Jesus answer to nicodemus on how can one be born again)

For God so loved the world. that he gave his only begotten son, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM will NEVER PERISH, but HAS ETERNAL LIFE. (has been born again, life eternal)

If a man can not believe in jesus, they can not be born again, if they can not be born again, they can not be saved.