calvinism

[moretalman]

Some people think "once saved always saved" is sufficent. The 5 points of calvinism would be a good place to start, ie the acronym "tulip". Calvin wrote many volumes. I guess what I'm trying to say is this: The simple explaination your looking for dosent exist. It will require study & diligence to comprehend it rightly. And once you think you've got it down, someone will come along & point out how your interpertation is all wrong. Calvinist themselves differ widely. But let me ask you this carey. Why such great interest in Calvinism? What can you tell us about it so far & what do you believe?

 

[Abiding]

Calvinism is just a group who adheres to a certain interpretation of scripture.
Although they only allow the interpretation to conform to 5 rules....and with
enough spin they do it sorta ok. but not really.

 

[1Covenant]

@1covenant
With all that being said, can someone please explain all this to me as if I was a two year old? Like I said I don't understand all the terminology, so please use simple words!
Thank you

As a simple explanation of Calvinism the acronym T.U.L.I.P is helpful and represents some basics about Calvinism.

However, TULIP is only helpful to a point, because, like anything, when you condense a library of literary works to five points there is a great deal left out. In addition, what we call TULIP did not even originate with Calvin but came out of the Synod (council meeting) of Dordt in Holland (1618) and was a direct reaction to Arminius' (his latin name) rejection of five particular doctrines of the church (Original sin, unconditional predestination, invincible grace in conversion, particular redemption, and perseverance of saints).

Though Arminius rejected those points, it was unclear what he was intending to replace it with and the council eventually reaffirmed its belief in the five points with which he had trouble. It was later discovered that Arminius beliefs were essentially semi-pelagian in nature (that is a discussion for another time but was an older heresy).

Before I go any further, you should know that much of the theology we have today has originated in this way, as a defense against heresies that have been presented to the church. Church theologians in defending against heresies would then attempt to define what is biblical and in what framework we can rightly understand the bible. In other words, throughout history you have had theologians putting fences up, not to box people in, but to make plain for everyone what is in and what is outside orthodox (true, original, biblical, etc) belief.

So though Calvin's is not the author TULIP, it does crudely capture a great deal of the nature of his work. Some of the issues he dealt with are some of the same things you see debated right here in this chat room. Did God act on us or did we act towards him? In what order does God act? These may not seem like unimportant questions but we all have experiences defending some belief of scripture over and against another belief of scripture and so we practice this same theological exercise on a micro scale.

So TULIP stands for:
Total depravity - man is born and dead in sin because of original sin in our first parents. Man cannot save himself. This is the life in the first Adam versus the life in the second Adam (Christ).

Unconditional election - God is not a respecter of persons but saves unconditionally without merit on their part. This follows the first point that merit (obedience, work, etc.) is not possible in their condition. This point is usually referenced to Romans 9:11-13 among other passages.

Limited atonement - The atonement of Christ was for those whom the father has given Him. While there is a provisional offer to the whole world, their final rejection is the evidence of the limited nature of the atonement and their depravity in Adam.

Irresistible grace - Those on whom he sets gracious affection he cannot lose. Another word used here by some reformers is sufficient grace. Sufficient grace is given to call and keep.

Perseverance of the saints - As a fruit of God's work, the elect saints of God persevere until the end. Evidence of the effectual calling and sufficient grace that those that God has in his hands he cannot lose. "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy."

So one last piece for you to chew on is the four states of man which I hope will show you, in part, how theology begins and develops. This was originally presented by Augustine (300s AD) as he attempted to outline the change in our nature from creation to eternity.

Pre-Fall Man - he is able to sin, and he is able not to sin
Post-Fall Man - he is able to sin, and he is unable not to sin
Reborn Man - he is able to sin, and he is able not to sin
Glorified Man - he is able not to sin and he is unable to sin

Thomas Boston (1700s) would later put it in his own words this way.
Garden - Primitive integrity
Fall - Entire depravity
Christ - Begun Recovery
Eternity - Consummate happiness or misery

You can see then both how total depravity is a theological belief that works out of Augustine in seed form to grow to application in the Synod of Dordt and eventually how current theology might then reincorporate those beliefs into other older ideas like Augustine's four states of man.

I hope this proves helpful. I tried to write in such a way that it might help you to understand some aspects of what is referred to as Calvinism, not necessarily agree with it. This is why I tried not to fill it with scripture proofs, just the same I hope there is sufficient scriptures for you once again to understand the genesis of the thought (no pun intended).

 

[crossnote]

I did not miss the point at all.

This thread is in the context of the systematic theology of John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion."

We already have one poster quote Eph 2:5, Joh 5:21 and Jer 13:23 in the context of Calvin's theology which is a context of man's INABILITY being offset by the IRRESISTIBLE GRACE of God.

Those who adhere to the theology of John Calvin believe that ONLY those who are granted IRRESISTIBLE GRACE are saved and that those who are not granted it remain damned and doomed.

The Bible simply does not teach IRRESISTIBLE GRACE. It is a very dangerous doctrine because it convinces people to WAIT on God instead of responding now. When the dynamic of faith is redefined to simply be "trust" apart from us having to do anything we are left with a do nothing Gospel because it is up to God to do everything. This is why Calvinist's harp on their doctrines and ignore the plain and simple teachings of Jesus.

John Calvin used Augustine as the bedrock of his doctrine, not the teachings of Jesus Christ. While I have not sat down and counted, from my own readings of the Institutes it does appear that John Calvin quotes Augustine far more than he does Jesus or anyone else for that matter.

It was Augustine who brought the doctrine of inability into Christian orthodoxy and John Calvin simply developed a more intricate theological system. I understand how it appeals to intellectuals and when an individual invests a lot of time in something they become emotionally attached.



I would love to see a Calvinist on these forums address this passage of scripture...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Please explain why you teach the "corruption of nature" remains in someone who is born again and thus uphold "sin you will and sin you must" which is the complete opposite of what the above passage of scripture teaches. John clearly states matter of factly that those born of God MANIFEST RIGHTEOUSNESS thus clearly connecting the inward state of the heart with the outer manifestation of action.



I would also love to see a Calvinist address this...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

That passage clearly teaches that "continuing in sin" AFTER being "sanctified by the blood" is treating the blood with contempt for it is the blood of Christ which purges the conscience of sin (Heb 9:14, 10:22) and thus to continue in sin would make it filthy again.

I have heard people explain that passage away by saying it was not written to Christian's or that it is a reference to those who merely "hear" and then reject the Gospel. Yet neither of those explanations suffice because the passage clearly states the context is of someone who has been sanctified by the blood (Heb 10:22, 26, 29) so it is a clear reference to those who have been reconciled to God.

How does a Calvinist get around that passage? I would really like to know. Be SPECIFIC in your answer.

It's seems to me that a Calvinist would have to believe that there is this ongoing purging for ongoing rebellion in which case Heb 20:26 would make no sense because ongoing willful sin is a given.

Spinski,
It's a warning that there is no forgiveness any longer under the Levitical system, so to reject Christ is to reject salvation.The 'continuing sin' in context is to continue under the Levitical Priesthood...this is a central point of the book of Hebrews. Remember the blood of bulls does not take away sin, only the Blood of Jesus?

 

[carey]

My interest in Calvinism began with seeing sarcastic remarks on CC, such as, you must be a Calvinist, some of the accusations have been pretty rude, so I decided to look into it, some of what Calvin has said makes sense, and what I have read
is hard to understand, hence my questions

Some people think "once saved always saved" is sufficent. The 5 points of calvinism would be a good place to start, ie the acronym "tulip". Calvin wrote many volumes. I guess what I'm trying to say is this: The simple explaination your looking for dosent exist. It will require study & diligence to comprehend it rightly. And once you think you've got it down, someone will come along & point out how your interpertation is all wrong. Calvinist themselves differ widely. But let me ask you this carey. Why such great interest in Calvinism? What can you tell us about it so far & what do you believe?

 

[carey]

Thank you so much, that brings light to what I was struggling to understand!

As a simple explanation of Calvinism the acronym T.U.L.I.P is helpful and represents some basics about Calvinism.

However, TULIP is only helpful to a point, because, like anything, when you condense a library of literary works to five points there is a great deal left out. In addition, what we call TULIP did not even originate with Calvin but came out of the Synod (council meeting) of Dordt in Holland (1618) and was a direct reaction to Arminius' (his latin name) rejection of five particular doctrines of the church (Original sin, unconditional predestination, invincible grace in conversion, particular redemption, and perseverance of saints).

Though Arminius rejected those points, it was unclear what he was intending to replace it with and the council eventually reaffirmed its belief in the five points with which he had trouble. It was later discovered that Arminius beliefs were essentially semi-pelagian in nature (that is a discussion for another time but was an older heresy).

Before I go any further, you should know that much of the theology we have today has originated in this way, as a defense against heresies that have been presented to the church. Church theologians in defending against heresies would then attempt to define what is biblical and in what framework we can rightly understand the bible. In other words, throughout history you have had theologians putting fences up, not to box people in, but to make plain for everyone what is in and what is outside orthodox (true, original, biblical, etc) belief.

So though Calvin's is not the author TULIP, it does crudely capture a great deal of the nature of his work. Some of the issues he dealt with are some of the same things you see debated right here in this chat room. Did God act on us or did we act towards him? In what order does God act? These may not seem like unimportant questions but we all have experiences defending some belief of scripture over and against another belief of scripture and so we practice this same theological exercise on a micro scale.

So TULIP stands for:
Total depravity - man is born and dead in sin because of original sin in our first parents. Man cannot save himself. This is the life in the first Adam versus the life in the second Adam (Christ).

Unconditional election - God is not a respecter of persons but saves unconditionally without merit on their part. This follows the first point that merit (obedience, work, etc.) is not possible in their condition. This point is usually referenced to Romans 9:11-13 among other passages.

Limited atonement - The atonement of Christ was for those whom the father has given Him. While there is a provisional offer to the whole world, their final rejection is the evidence of the limited nature of the atonement and their depravity in Adam.

Irresistible grace - Those on whom he sets gracious affection he cannot lose. Another word used here by some reformers is sufficient grace. Sufficient grace is given to call and keep.

Perseverance of the saints - As a fruit of God's work, the elect saints of God persevere until the end. Evidence of the effectual calling and sufficient grace that those that God has in his hands he cannot lose. "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy."

So one last piece for you to chew on is the four states of man which I hope will show you, in part, how theology begins and develops. This was originally presented by Augustine (300s AD) as he attempted to outline the change in our nature from creation to eternity.

Pre-Fall Man - he is able to sin, and he is able not to sin
Post-Fall Man - he is able to sin, and he is unable not to sin
Reborn Man - he is able to sin, and he is able not to sin
Glorified Man - he is able not to sin and he is unable to sin

Thomas Boston (1700s) would later put it in his own words this way.
Garden - Primitive integrity
Fall - Entire depravity
Christ - Begun Recovery
Eternity - Consummate happiness or misery

You can see then both how total depravity is a theological belief that works out of Augustine in seed form to grow to application in the Synod of Dordt and eventually how current theology might then reincorporate those beliefs into other older ideas like Augustine's four states of man.

I hope this proves helpful. I tried to write in such a way that it might help you to understand some aspects of what is referred to as Calvinism, not necessarily agree with it. This is why I tried not to fill it with scripture proofs, just the same I hope there is sufficient scriptures for you once again to understand the genesis of the thought (no pun intended).

 

[Skinski7]

Spinski,
It's a warning that there is no forgiveness any longer under the Levitical system, so to reject Christ is to reject salvation.The 'continuing sin' in context is to continue under the Levitical Priesthood...this is a central point of the book of Hebrews. Remember the blood of bulls does not take away sin, only the Blood of Jesus?

You might wish that is what is meant but the passage specifically says...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Those who reject Jesus Christ are not sanctified by the blood. Hebrews 10:26 is directed at those who experience Heb 10:22...

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

People who were cleansed of all sin...

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Thus to willfully sin against such a cleansing is treating the blood of Christ like the blood of animals which was unable to purge the conscience of sin. For willful sin is to make the conscience filthy again.

Hebrews 10:26-29 is a perfect example of a clear scripture which is utterly rejected by many people today.




Even more clarity is given on this subject in regards to those who fall away.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Jesus Christ died ONCE. His death is not a get out of jail free card to be used over and over again. Such a view is blaspheme.

 

[jimmydiggs]

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN CALVINISM TO ME USING SMALL WORDS!!!
I thought if I used all caps someone might get the hint! Now let's see if it works
;/
:~o

People are born really bad, and don't want anything to do with God.


God changes those people's hearts(not the people changing their own hearts), and he doesn't change their hearts because they are doctors, lawyers, or white, or have a lot of money. He chooses them in accordance to his will despite the fact that all should be damned.

Jesus died to atone for those who would be his people(the saved), not for those who would not be his people. His atonement was effective(it actually saved someone), and not just a potential atonement(you have to save yourself, jesus will help you do it).

When God changes a person heart, he changes their heart so that they will desire God.

Because God has changed the persons heart, they will continue to desire God because God is the one who keeps us keepin' on.

 

[jimmydiggs]

My interest in Calvinism began with seeing sarcastic remarks on CC, such as, you must be a Calvinist, some of the accusations have been pretty rude,

Calvinists are a minority in the United States, and they have never been well liked by liberal churches.

 

[ladylynn]

YIKES!!!! So many words- i was lost for a while. I was raised in a GARBC church... General Association of Regular Baptist Churches... This is a very legalistic organization that 30 yrs ago told us that listening to Christian radio was sinful. We learned about T.U.L.I.P. and to this day I still find the doctrin extreemly helpful in rightly dividing the Word of Truth. But we cannot know ALL there is to know about our God. He is awsome. He is the 3 in One. Father-Son-Holy Ghost. How can we understand that? only by faith that He gives. Eph. 2:8-9 not of yourselves it is a gift of God not of works.... I love that because to be saved is to stay saved...we are saved by Jesus and kept by Jesus.

I love to know about God's love and grace. Grace is nothing we humans can grasp unless it is shown by the Holy Spirit through faith. This journey with the Lord is never boring, never-ending. Always safe.