Can a christian lose their salvation

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Can a christian lose their salvation?

  • yes

    Votes: 24 39.3%
  • no

    Votes: 37 60.7%

  • Total voters
    61
K

KennethC

Guest
Paul isn't talking about producing fruit in this application, he talking being in or belonging to the family of God by using the picture of a cultivated olive tree.

This may come to news to you, but Israel was never selected or chosen for salvation. They, Abraham, was chosen to be a missionary to the world. The Abrahamic covenant was a promise to Abraham that his seed (singular, meaning Christ) will bring blessings to all families of every nation (this was unconditional). The promise was that all nations will be blessed through him. And the sign of this covenant was circumcision, not natural descent. Anyone, gentiles, could be included and were included, as long as they were circumcised. If a natural Jew wasn't circumcised, they were to be cast out of the covenant. The Jews were never selected or chosen specifically for salvation, even though many were saved as consequence of God choosing Abraham for God's plan of redemption.

2nd, John gives one example of someone leaving the church because they weren't "part or of them", John is not saying this applies to everyone who leaves the church or loses their faith. John is not building a church doctrine here.

God took the Kingdom from the religious leaders of Israel and gave not to just gentiles, but first to the Jews, who do you think 12 disciples were? They were Israelites! The remnant! Luke 12:32, Jesus speaking to Jewish disciples of Christ, "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom."
Those 12 disciples/Apostles were not the only Jews either that were saved before any Gentile was even given the message to be saved.

Jesus commanded the disciples to go out to the Jews first to proclaim the good news of salvation, then they were commissioned to go out to every other nation.

Being grafted in is referred to being part of the body of Christ, if you are not grafted in then there is no salvation. Salvation only comes to those who are in the body of Christ (BELIEVERS IN HIM).

They can not be separated, just as the walk and faith can not be separated !!!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Paul isn't talking about producing fruit in this application, he talking being in or belonging to the family of God by using the picture of a cultivated olive tree.

This may come to news to you, but Israel was never selected or chosen for salvation.

See here we go again.

1. This is not what I ever suggested
2. This is not what I said was the foundation of my interpretation
3. This is not have anything to do with what I said.


How can we ever discuss anything if you continually bash what YOU THINK I BELIEVE, when I do not even believe it?

No, He was not talking about salvation in romans 11. He is talking (in the whole chapter (of believing Israel and blind Israel. vs believing gentile.

Amazing how you just said basically the exact same thing I said, Yet turned it on me to bash me.. (as far as abraham being the witness and representatives on earth) I just said that very same thing, and how God took that away from Israel. and gave it to the gentile..

Do you EVER listen to a thing I say? I love ya brother, but it gets so frustrating trying to tell someone over and over I do not believe what they claim I believe.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Your religion is blinding you.....this is a waste of time..I can see that...
You are the one who is blinded if you are rejecting those clear passages just before and after speaking on putting away sinful behaviors !!!

Paul is very clear and direct here that grieving the Holy Spirit is continuing to live deliberate sinful lifestyles, and when a person continues in such a way they break that unity with Him......Verse 4:30

That is not out of context of your response in post 119, if it clearly says we are to endeavor to keep the unity, then that means if you don't endeavor then that unity can be broken.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Heb 6:4-6)

If you wear the lenses of performance-based Christianity, this could be a scary scripture, for it sounds like your salvation hinges on your behavior. Do good, get good, but fall away and you’re lost forever. If that’s how this scripture appears to you, change your glasses! What you look through determines what you see. So read this scripture through the lens of Jesus and His finished work.

So who and what is this passage describing?

Some say that this scripture is referring to Christians – those who have become sharers or partakers in the Holy Spirit. If so, then the argument being made is deliberately nonsensical. If they fall away it is impossible for them to get saved again because Jesus would have to come and die again. Since Jesus isn’t going to die again, then it’s impossible for them to fall away. Instead of being a threat to your eternal salvation, this verse actually supports it. But I know not everyone will agree.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You are the one who is blinded if you are rejecting those clear passages just before and after speaking on putting away sinful behaviors !!!

So I say something like this to you. And I get ignored. But it is ok for you to say it to someone else.

Your a hypocrite. Why are you still here??
 
Nov 22, 2015
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If anyone is interested in a grace-based view of Hebrews 6...take a look for yourself...remember..not everything in the bible is written YO you but everything is written for us to learn from...

Don't take someone else's medicine!

click the below link if you want to look at scripture through the lens of grace..

Hebrews 6:4-6 – Escape to Reality
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Ephesians 4:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

were sealed = aorist tense passive voice

Aorist = past tense = done deal in the past.

Passive = something being acted upon you- you are not doing it.

We have nothing to do with us being "sealed" in the Holy Spirit....it is all Him!
 
K

KennethC

Guest
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Heb 6:4-6)

If you wear the lenses of performance-based Christianity, this could be a scary scripture, for it sounds like your salvation hinges on your behavior. Do good, get good, but fall away and you’re lost forever. If that’s how this scripture appears to you, change your glasses! What you look through determines what you see. So read this scripture through the lens of Jesus and His finished work.

So who and what is this passage describing?

Some say that this scripture is referring to Christians – those who have become sharers or partakers in the Holy Spirit. If so, then the argument being made is deliberately nonsensical. If they fall away it is impossible for them to get saved again because Jesus would have to come and die again. Since Jesus isn’t going to die again, then it’s impossible for them to fall away. Instead of being a threat to your eternal salvation, this verse actually supports it. But I know not everyone will agree.
Wrong again and is not in any way how those who look at this passage think, so please stop listening to other men's interpretations or reasoning.............

A unbeliever can not partake of the Holy Spirit, the only way this can be done is when one is born again.

Unbelievers are not given the Holy Spirit !!!

The reason it is impossible for these people to be brought back to repentance, does not have nothing to do with Jesus having to be actually crucified again.

It is saying that they because of their sinful behavior they refuse to give up put's Christ to shame and keeps Him hanging on the cross !!!

They can't be brought to repentance because of that refusal to stop walking in sin...........


The impossible part is in reference to them coming to repent, not the falling away as you have suggested !!!
 
Nov 22, 2015
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LOL..with that sort of logic...you are blinded if you reject the Song of Solomon as the word of God!.....we could say that about all scripture...:rolleyes:....this is a complete waste of time...


You are the one who is blinded if you are rejecting those clear passages just before and after speaking on putting away sinful behaviors !!!

Paul is very clear and direct here that grieving the Holy Spirit is continuing to live deliberate sinful lifestyles, and when a person continues in such a way they break that unity with Him......Verse 4:30

That is not out of context of your response in post 119, if it clearly says we are to endeavor to keep the unity, then that means if you don't endeavor then that unity can be broken.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Judas "was a partaker" in the works of the Holy Spirit and was a partaker in going to cast out devils and and heal the sick...and he was no born-again..

Wrong again and is not in any way how those who look at this passage think, so please stop listening to other men's interpretations or reasoning.............

A unbeliever can not partake of the Holy Spirit, the only way this can be done is when one is born again.

Unbelievers are not given the Holy Spirit !!!

The reason it is impossible for these people to be brought back to repentance, does not have nothing to do with Jesus having to be actually crucified again.

It is saying that they because of their sinful behavior they refuse to give up put's Christ to shame and keeps Him hanging on the cross !!!

They can't be brought to repentance because of that refusal to stop walking in sin...........


The impossible part is in reference to them coming to repent, not the falling away as you have suggested !!!
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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The whole matter rests on whether Jesus paid for it all - everything - every single sin we ever committed, or will commit. Whether Jesus paid our debt in full - for all time - ensuring that the Law no longer has a hold on us.

Either He did, or He did not.

If He did not, how could we ever be sure that we have sufficiently measured up to His standard of righteousness so that we may feel guaranteed a home in heaven? Whether we are talking about salvation by works or assurance of salvation by works, the only standard is the Law. Therefore, to feel the guarantee that we have a home in heaven by our obedience means that we have our work cut out for us! But, on the other hand, if Jesus fully paid the debt, we have nothing whatsoever to fear.

If Jesus paid it all, I am saved. If He did not, I am in trouble.

No man ever went to hell who trusted in the blood of God's beloved Son. But hell is full of people who trusted in their own self-righteousness.

The devil will do all he can to divert people's attention from the blood of Jesus. It is not once saved, always saved of which the devil is the architect, it is any teaching that will lead to the slightest mistrust in the blood of Jesus shed on the cross. Because Satan know it is the blood that saves - utterly and completely.

What a pity that some Christians will find out when they get to heaven that they were eternally and irrevocably saved from the moment of their conversion, but spent their lives dialoging with the devil over whether or not they were really saved. What a pity that many will find out in heaven there was no need for such insecurity and anxiety. What a pity that some will discover a truth they were afraid to believe on earth, but that would have given them peace, victory, and a basis for solid growth in grace.

Those who think that sinning after their conversion nullifies their salvation will be attaining to morality through fear of punishment (i.e., of losing their salvation). Hence, they try to live moral lives. The mistake that people make is that they call this morality "godliness." It is not that. Men can be moral and godless. Godliness will produce morality, but morality will never produce godliness.

If godliness is rewarded by salvation, then salvation is not free. Living a straight life in order to keep from invalidating our salvation is not godliness. It is morality that is produced exactly the same way the Law produced it - through fear of punishment.

Godliness is living to the glory of the Lord when you realize it is done from the heart, out of gratitude. You cannot live in a godly manner for the glory of God as long as you have your own interest at stake. But when you see that God's justice has been truly satisfied by the death of Jesus and that righteousness is put to your account by faith alone, that is partly what is meant by seeing the glory of the Lord. The result: you have an opportunity to be truly godly. Godliness is never a valid option until we see that we are saved, and kept saved, by the free grace of God. Before that it is something else - morality, fear, carefulness, anxiety, walking a straight line - but not godliness.

As long as there is doubt about your eternal standing in God's grace, there will be an impediment to your having fellowship with the Father.

You cannot have true respect for one who is basing your entire relationship on your own performance. If you feel you are constantly on trial, having to prove yourself, being analyzed, or feeling afraid that you will be cut off the moment you don't live up to some standard, you don't really have respect for that person. You cannot be at ease with someone who is always testing your relationship by how well you are treating him (or her). If your view of God is like that, don't be surprised if you do not have fellowship with Him. You don't really respect Him.

If after all that He has done by sending His Son to die on a cross, He still finds us doubting the validity of His gift, then fellowship with God will be a matter of tension, rather than joy. Fellowship with God is only possible because we are already in the family and cannot be disenfranchised.

Those who doubt their salvation try to live in a godly manner, but it gets them nowhere insofar as joy is concerned. Look at their faces. They have long faces, grim faces, sad faces. They have spent years trying to live up to an (unattainable) standard, and they still haven't done it. People like that are counter-productive - all because they don't take the simplicity of God's word to heart.

All of us have struggled with the simplicity of the gospel. Hoping that we are truly sealed, and that nothing can snatch us from Christ's hand. Struggling to believe His promise that we shall never perish. Time and again we end up saying it is too good to be true. With that in mind, the devil comes along and suggests it is too good to be true. - R.T. Kendall

But it is true.

God meant every word when He inspired Paul to write:

"...neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God , which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-38)

"Any creature" includes ourselves. Once we are adopted into God's family, there is nothing we can do to get out. If it were possible, then Jesus was mistaken when He said, " Whoever hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life and will not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." (John 5:24)

If we could be kicked out, or leave, then the life given was never eternal, we will come under judgment, and pass back into spiritual death.

All the things Jesus said will not happen.

We need to stop trusting in ourselves, and believe God and His word. We are eternally forgiven, can never again come into judgment or condemnation, and can never lose what we didn't earn - God's gift of salvation - based on the finished work of Jesus Christ alone.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Amen! I say Jesus paid it all in full..It is finished!


JesusPaiditAll.png
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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Those 12 disciples/Apostles were not the only Jews either that were saved before any Gentile was even given the message to be saved.

Jesus commanded the disciples to go out to the Jews first to proclaim the good news of salvation, then they were commissioned to go out to every other nation.

Being grafted in is referred to being part of the body of Christ, if you are not grafted in then there is no salvation. Salvation only comes to those who are in the body of Christ (BELIEVERS IN HIM).

They can not be separated, just as the walk and faith can not be separated !!!
This is true. But prior to Christ Jews were saved via their faith in the coming messiah, even though they didn't see the whole picture clearly. Their cultural and religious (the Levitical Law) all pointed to Christ. Everything of their faith and practice was a type/example of the real thing, the substance, which is Christ (the anti-type). But not only the Jews by blood were saved, but even foreigners. Foreigners had to join in, be circumcised and such, but salvation was never exclusively given to Jews by blood relation. It was by physical circumcision, which is a only type for the real circumcision which is of the heart (the real thing God cares about).
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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Amen! I say Jesus paid it all in full..It is finished!


View attachment 142085
Nobody is arguing that Jesus paid it all, or at least I'm not. Nothing I did to deserve it, nothing I did to earn it. But now that Jesus paid for my salvation, I belong to Him, I was bought by Him for a price. He owns me, I'm a bond-servant, I aught to do what He asks to my best ability but even so in my human weakness I fail. My best intentions are to do His will. Every true believer aught IMO have a mind to live for Him. However, we aren't talking about those who keep the faith, we are talking about those who claimed and demonstrated in every way to have faith and eternal life and then outright rejected Him for whatever reason (and I suspect we all know of someone). How do I know if this person was really saved or not to begin with. Only God can see into the heart.

Did Jesus pay the penalty for all those who don't have faith?
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Judas "was a partaker" in the works of the Holy Spirit and was a partaker in going to cast out devils and and heal the sick...and he was no born-again..
Judas was not a unbeliever !!!

And also he was given those abilities straight from Jesus, not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as that was not given tell Pentecost !!!

Your argument is again flawed because nobody not even the other 11 were born again or even saved yet at that point, because part of believing in Jesus Christ to be saved is believing in His resurrection.

So how can the 11 have been saved before Jesus died on the cross and most of them denied His teachings at that point on His dying and being resurrected. Thomas still doubted even after Jesus was resurrected, it wasn't tell he saw Jesus and put his finger in His side that he believed !!!
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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So how can the 11 have been saved before Jesus died on the cross
The same way Abraham and the Old Testament saints were saved.

Was there a separate means of salvation for them?
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Nobody is arguing that Jesus paid it all, or at least I'm not. Nothing I did to deserve it, nothing I did to earn it. But now that Jesus paid for my salvation, I belong to Him, I was bought by Him for a price. He owns me, I'm a bond-servant, I aught to do what He asks to my best ability but even so in my human weakness I fail. My best intentions are to do His will. Every true believer aught IMO have a mind to live for Him. However, we aren't talking about those who keep the faith, we are talking about those who claimed and demonstrated in every way to have faith and eternal life and then outright rejected Him for whatever reason (and I suspect we all know of someone). How do I know if this person was really saved or not to begin with. Only God can see into the heart.

Did Jesus pay the penalty for all those who don't have faith?
What does really saved to begin with mean? It is written that as many as are baptized into Christ put on Christ. That would be the circumcision of the heart that brings one into covenant with GOD.

for as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27

So even a child of the devil (which we all are in Adam) can be a member of the covenant and become a child of GOD. Whether they stay a child of GOD is something altogether different.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
This is true. But prior to Christ Jews were saved via their faith in the coming messiah, even though they didn't see the whole picture clearly. Their cultural and religious (the Levitical Law) all pointed to Christ. Everything of their faith and practice was a type/example of the real thing, the substance, which is Christ (the anti-type). But not only the Jews by blood were saved, but even foreigners. Foreigners had to join in, be circumcised and such, but salvation was never exclusively given to Jews by blood relation. It was by physical circumcision, which is a only type for the real circumcision which is of the heart (the real thing God cares about).

Yes I understand all of this and was just pointing to the fact as I did before that the rendering of being grafted in or not can not refer to the whole group of people.

Because unbelieving Jews do not keep believing Jews from being grafted in, no more than a unbelieving Gentile can keep a believing Gentile from being grafted in.

If this referred to the whole group then all Jews including the believing one's would have to be cut off right now, which would include the original 11 Apostles - Judas..........

The other thing is that it has been bread in our minds in teachings only two groups: Believers and unbelievers

When we actually study we see that there is actually more to it than that, as passages such as the Sower and Seed show us. Jesus actually breaks it down that there is different ways in which the Word of God is received by people, and only those who continue in His way tell the end will receive eternal life through Him.

Those who accept it for a little bit or awhile and then fall away do not !!!
 
Dec 1, 2014
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Budman, you hit a grand slam with post 131. Awesome as always, Brother!
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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See here we go again.

1. This is not what I ever suggested
2. This is not what I said was the foundation of my interpretation
3. This is not have anything to do with what I said.


How can we ever discuss anything if you continually bash what YOU THINK I BELIEVE, when I do not even believe it?

No, He was not talking about salvation in romans 11. He is talking (in the whole chapter (of believing Israel and blind Israel. vs believing gentile.

Amazing how you just said basically the exact same thing I said, Yet turned it on me to bash me.. (as far as abraham being the witness and representatives on earth) I just said that very same thing, and how God took that away from Israel. and gave it to the gentile..

Do you EVER listen to a thing I say? I love ya brother, but it gets so frustrating trying to tell someone over and over I do not believe what they claim I believe.
We are not connecting, I'm not trying to bash you. God did not take it way from Israel (He took it away from the religious rulers of Israel who was of their father the devil). True Israel still has it, believing Israel still has it, those in Christ are the Israel of God. The nation of Israel was but a type of Christ and His corporate body. Did not God say to Pharaoh that Israel was His son, His first born? Did not the New Testament make it clear that Jesus is also called God's son and first born? Was not Israel called out of Egypt in it's infancy as later was Jesus? The nation of Israel is a type, the anti-type is Christ and His corporate body. God took the type/example away since Christ fulfilled it all.

The term Israel could mean several things, Israel the nation, Israel the land, Israel the people of God. Perhaps this is what is confusing.

I don't know what to say EG, I love you too bro...and all the others who don't understand or see the things the way I see them. And I still reserve the right to be wrong.
 
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