You are looking at two different applications of the same word. The short definition of διάκονος is simply a servant or minister thus, one who serves another. In the introduction of the word by the Holy Spirit through Paul, the word is now employed in the same idea but now, it is used to define a specific appointed function in the Church. Now, beyond just the simple basic definition, it is given a list of qualifications that are required if one is to be identified as one who fills this function in the Church. A woman in the Church may be involved in various areas of serving others yet she does not fall within the revealed application of the Holy Spirit's use of this term in either of these two texts.
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You are looking at two different applications of the same word. The short definition of διάκονος is simply a servant or minister thus, one who serves another. In the introduction of the word by the Holy Spirit through Paul, the word is now employed in the same idea but now, it is used to define a specific appointed function in the Church. Now, beyond just the simple basic definition, it is given a list of qualifications that are required if one is to be identified as one who fills this function in the Church. A woman in the Church may be involved in various areas of serving others yet she does not fall within the revealed application of the Holy Spirit's use of this term in either of these two texts.
Again, you are going with a certain translation that fits with your view when you talk about the 'revealed application of the Holy Spirit.'
If Phoebe is a 'servant of the church' and Paul asks the church she is visiting to assist her in whatever business they have need of her, then doesn't it make sense to interpret 'and their women' in the passage about deacons to be a list of requirements for female deacons, rather than deacon's wives? If there aren't a list of qualifications for elders' wives, why would deacon's wives need a list of qualifications?
If Phoebe is a 'servant of the church' and Paul asks the church she is visiting to assist her in whatever business they have need of her, then doesn't it make sense to interpret 'and their women' in the passage about deacons to be a list of requirements for female deacons, rather than deacon's wives? If there aren't a list of qualifications for elders' wives, why would deacon's wives need a list of qualifications?
G
This is good Lpresidente, God bless ya, bro, for seeking hard on this subject, not giving in on the last page when you said that elders could not be a woman. 
The Lord leads, you're starting to get unparallelled (revealed) learning from Him on this important subject of 'authority,' for women, in the church . There isn't toooo much said about women regarding being a deacon but it is well understood that a woman, indeed, can become one of that office or calling in her church
The Lord leads, you're starting to get unparallelled (revealed) learning from Him on this important subject of 'authority,' for women, in the church . There isn't toooo much said about women regarding being a deacon but it is well understood that a woman, indeed, can become one of that office or calling in her church
1 Timothy 3:11 (Interlinear) [SUP]11 [/SUP]γυναῖκας gunaikas N-AF-P WOMEN [DEACONESSES] γυνή ὡσαύτως hōsautōs AB SIMILARLY ὡσαύτως σεμνάς, semnas A--AF-P [MUST BE] RESPECTABLE, σεμνός μὴ mē QN NOT μή διαβόλους, diabolous A--AF-P SLANDERERS, διάβολος νηφαλίους, nēphalious A--AF-P TEMPERATE, νηφάλιος πιστὰς pistas A--AF-P FAITHFUL πιστός ἐν en PD IN ἐν πᾶσιν. pasin AP-DN-P ALL THINGS. πᾶς
G
Well reiterated, stevestephen, as Lpresidente did a good job of bringing this up firstly.
Now, now, don't despair, remember, 'the last shall be first.'
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excerpt from Lpresidente, post #80 :
It depends on how you translate and interpret it. Some translators allow for the idea that I Timothy 3 allows for women deacons. If verse 11 is about their wives, you have a point. But if it is talking about the women among the deacons, then that disproves your argument.
I Timothy 3
Now, now, don't despair, remember, 'the last shall be first.'
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excerpt from Lpresidente, post #80 :
It depends on how you translate and interpret it. Some translators allow for the idea that I Timothy 3 allows for women deacons. If verse 11 is about their wives, you have a point. But if it is talking about the women among the deacons, then that disproves your argument.
I Timothy 3
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G
GreenNnice:
Lpresidente: You might not. Other people might. I overheard a former seminary professor with a PhD who taught Greek a while back saying what it meant. It means man or husband. It doesn't mean a woman.
Who is to be the head? Husband or wife? If the wife is the man's pastor, don't you see a conflict there?
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bro, Lpresidente, I don't see a conflict, for one thing, 'pastor' is a title that NO ONE is to have, we only have One Teacher, and, He is Him Scripture tells us this from Scripture:
Matthew 23:8 :
Lpresidente: You might not. Other people might. I overheard a former seminary professor with a PhD who taught Greek a while back saying what it meant. It means man or husband. It doesn't mean a woman.
Who is to be the head? Husband or wife? If the wife is the man's pastor, don't you see a conflict there?
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bro, Lpresidente, I don't see a conflict, for one thing, 'pastor' is a title that NO ONE is to have, we only have One Teacher, and, He is Him
Scripture tells us this from Scripture:Matthew 23:8 :
But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.]/quote]
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I don't say 'aner' = woman. Where do you get that idea from what I say ?
Aner = 'man' and also can mean 'husband,' but is not the FIRST definition of that Greek word.
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I don't say 'aner' = woman. Where do you get that idea from what I say ?
Aner = 'man' and also can mean 'husband,' but is not the FIRST definition of that Greek word.
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1 Timothy 3:8-13 (NASB) [SUP]8 [/SUP]Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, [SUP]9 [/SUP]but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. [SUP]10 [/SUP]These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
I'm glad that this scripture used the word women instead of wife. But why the distinction of qualifications between the two?
Paul speaks to both according to their weaknesses. He first gives the qualifications to men, then gives additional specifications to women because of their specific weaknesses.
Notice what is missing? Nowhere does it say the wife of one husband. Why? Because of historical context. No woman of any country in those days as it is now was allowed to have more than one husband. Therefore it wasn't needed to be said. It would be useless, therefore it was silent. That might explain some reasons as to why " husband of one wife" is always listed with the other offices.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
I'm glad that this scripture used the word women instead of wife. But why the distinction of qualifications between the two?
Paul speaks to both according to their weaknesses. He first gives the qualifications to men, then gives additional specifications to women because of their specific weaknesses.
Notice what is missing? Nowhere does it say the wife of one husband. Why? Because of historical context. No woman of any country in those days as it is now was allowed to have more than one husband. Therefore it wasn't needed to be said. It would be useless, therefore it was silent. That might explain some reasons as to why " husband of one wife" is always listed with the other offices.
This is not the first time in the King James that this "mistake" was made by the translators. The same mistake was made in 1Timothy 2:12 in reverse.
1 Timothy 2:12 (KJV) [SUP]12 [/SUP]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Greek Word: γυνή
Transliteration: gynē
Phonetic Pronunciation:goo-nay'
Root: probably from the base of <G1096>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:776,134
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Wife, Wives, Woman
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
women 129
wife 92
[Total Count: 221]
probably from the base of <G1096> (ginomai); a woman; specially a wife :- wife, woman.
1 Timothy 2:12 (KJV) [SUP]12 [/SUP]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Greek Word: γυνή
Transliteration: gynē
Phonetic Pronunciation:goo-nay'
Root: probably from the base of <G1096>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:776,134
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Wife, Wives, Woman
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
women 129
wife 92
[Total Count: 221]
probably from the base of <G1096> (ginomai); a woman; specially a wife :- wife, woman.
G
"Aner" is similar, I would gather, it will speak of a man , but also a husband, maybe, you could post the same definition information, stephenserving, in a post
----- Also, the word 'the' in 'the man' of 1 Timothy 2:12 bears some attention, I think.
"I suffer not a woman to teach (authority) or usurp authority over THE man but to be silent."
Now, to me, this brings the connotation of 'woman' to 'wife,' and, again, as previously stated, I see 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 reiterating Pauls' thoughts in 1 Timothy 2:11-15.
Definitely, 1 Timothy 2:13 speaks of Adam formed first and then Eve and this = HUSBAND AND WIFE .
Definitely, 1 Timothy 2:14 speaks of Adam not sinning , but Eve sinned, and, again, this = HUSBAND AND WIFE.
Definitely, 1 Timothy 2:15 speaks of a woman who is saved in child bearing and closest reference will be verses 13,14, which speak of A WIFE .
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Let's be clear though, regarding this thread, the most power ful argument for woman being an 'elder' is 1 Timothy 3 where Paul speaks in parallel thought, of 'likewise' traits for becoming a deacon in one's church, for he and "THE WOMEN."
----- Also, the word 'the' in 'the man' of 1 Timothy 2:12 bears some attention, I think.
"I suffer not a woman to teach (authority) or usurp authority over THE man but to be silent."
Now, to me, this brings the connotation of 'woman' to 'wife,' and, again, as previously stated, I see 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 reiterating Pauls' thoughts in 1 Timothy 2:11-15.
Definitely, 1 Timothy 2:13 speaks of Adam formed first and then Eve and this = HUSBAND AND WIFE .
Definitely, 1 Timothy 2:14 speaks of Adam not sinning , but Eve sinned, and, again, this = HUSBAND AND WIFE.
Definitely, 1 Timothy 2:15 speaks of a woman who is saved in child bearing and closest reference will be verses 13,14, which speak of A WIFE .
===================
Let's be clear though, regarding this thread, the most power ful argument for woman being an 'elder' is 1 Timothy 3 where Paul speaks in parallel thought, of 'likewise' traits for becoming a deacon in one's church, for he and "THE WOMEN."
This is good Lpresidente, God bless ya, bro, for seeking hard on this subject, not giving in on the last page when you said that elders could not be a woman.
The Lord leads, you're starting to get unparallelled (revealed) learning from Him on this important subject of 'authority,' for women, in the church . There isn't toooo much said about women regarding being a deacon but it is well understood that a woman, indeed, can become one of that office or calling in her church
The Lord leads, you're starting to get unparallelled (revealed) learning from Him on this important subject of 'authority,' for women, in the church . There isn't toooo much said about women regarding being a deacon but it is well understood that a woman, indeed, can become one of that office or calling in her church
Does New Testament Greek even have a word for wife or husband? I think words that mean 'man' or 'woman' are translated as husband or wife depending on context. Like in Spanish, 'my woman' can be translated 'my wife.'
If God wanted women to be overseers, why does the passage say that the overseer must be a man? Why does he say he must be an 'aner'? It starts off talking about 'one' being a bishop, but then it specifies a man.
There is something fatherly about the role. The man is the head of the wife. He is to rule his house and children well. If he leads his family well, then he might be entrusted with leading and pastoring in the household of faith. (Forget your church experience on this issue, which may ignore this concept.) The husband is the head of the wife and heads the household. If his wife becomes pastor, though, that puts her in a hierarchical role above him in a sense. It doesn't fit with what we read in the verses just before in I Timothy 2, where the wife is to submit to the husband and not teach or usurp authority over the man (or husband.) Nor does it fit with the emphasis on quietness and submission in the passage.
She shall be saved by childbearing. But the husband who rules himself and his house well might be entrusted with leading in the church of God.
If God wanted women to be overseers, why does the passage say that the overseer must be a man? Why does he say he must be an 'aner'? It starts off talking about 'one' being a bishop, but then it specifies a man.
There is something fatherly about the role. The man is the head of the wife. He is to rule his house and children well. If he leads his family well, then he might be entrusted with leading and pastoring in the household of faith. (Forget your church experience on this issue, which may ignore this concept.) The husband is the head of the wife and heads the household. If his wife becomes pastor, though, that puts her in a hierarchical role above him in a sense. It doesn't fit with what we read in the verses just before in I Timothy 2, where the wife is to submit to the husband and not teach or usurp authority over the man (or husband.) Nor does it fit with the emphasis on quietness and submission in the passage.
She shall be saved by childbearing. But the husband who rules himself and his house well might be entrusted with leading in the church of God.
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G
What's the Greek word for this one, oldherm ? Only occurs one time in the bible, too, a different word for 'husbands?' than Titus 2:4 ?
1 Corinthians 14:34
34 Women[SUP]f[/SUP] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[SUP]g[/SUP]
hold on, this isnt aimed at you its just you quoted it, im confused
i we are free from the law why does it say:
34 Women[SUP]f[/SUP] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
and a second question where in the law does it say that, i know my Scriptures pretty well but i am at a loss here, honestly.
i we are free from the law why does it say:
34 Women[SUP]f[/SUP] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
and a second question where in the law does it say that, i know my Scriptures pretty well but i am at a loss here, honestly.
G
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Women, in general, are to remain silent, this is the micro context, if you will, to this 1 Cor. 14:34 verse in Scripture, but, the MACRO (bigger) picture is that a woman is to be 'quiet' and in 'full submission' and is to ask her husband at home what something means, not interrupting the speaker's message in the worship service.
This PARALLELS with 1 Timothy 2:11-12 and, although the message is different to the Corinthians in First Corinthians to the message in 1 Timothy 2:11-12, the CONEXT is the same. Different message in literal words, but the meaning is the same for both churches. Paul uses more forceful language to the women in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, but, 1 Cor. 14:34-35 is also a pretty harsh directive to women as well.
A
i think im the first female to contribute to this.
i find this question really confusing. i just havent made up my mind about it. like,, im in favour of equality between men and women and all, but sometimes i feel very comforted when men are taking a leading role and in charge. just not sure how to make those two things fit with each other.
same with the whole marriage thing. am i a partner to my future husband? or is he in charge? totally confusing.
i find this question really confusing. i just havent made up my mind about it. like,, im in favour of equality between men and women and all, but sometimes i feel very comforted when men are taking a leading role and in charge. just not sure how to make those two things fit with each other.
same with the whole marriage thing. am i a partner to my future husband? or is he in charge? totally confusing.
What does the Father tell you when you ask him?
It seems that most, if not all of you, have never really learned how to talk to the Father and listen to HIS WORD.
You won't find the answers in those pages...stop looking there. Open your heart to him. You might be surprised at the answers you receive.
Think and pray on it.
May the Lord bless and keep you.
It seems that most, if not all of you, have never really learned how to talk to the Father and listen to HIS WORD.
You won't find the answers in those pages...stop looking there. Open your heart to him. You might be surprised at the answers you receive.
Think and pray on it.
May the Lord bless and keep you.
We are ALL called to minister, to do good,and to bless those around us. In fact, God requires ALL PEOPLE, saved andunsaved, to lead holy lives, and to treat others as God would. But Godgives certain gifts, rolls, and positions to certain, select people, of HISchoice, not ours.
{While, in the absence of the appropriate person or specified gender, God willuse ANYONE in ANY position (God used the anti-Christ Caiaphas toprophecy the necessity of Christ's death for the salvation of all - John11:49 & 50) these special circumstances do NOT give everyone free licenseto assume any and all ministries and roles in any but extenuating circumstances).}
Broader than just certain individuals, God has given each GENDER its own rolesand responsibilities. God has specifically stated that MEN are to bethe leaders and teachers in the church, and to be those who speak out in theBody. I do not need to list these passages; they are available for thesincere to read. The challenge in all discussions such as this tends tobe in counteracting the heretical claims of the least obedient that somepassages in the Bible are not of God! As usual the disobedience of sometends to attempt the turning of the hearts of the obedient to unbelief anddisobedience, for the sake of justifying the sin of the disobedient. Just as, "Misery loves company," so, "Sin cravesthe support of others," as though truth can be established bydemocratic or mob rule.
God tells us, through Paul, "34 Let your women keep silence in thechurches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commandedto be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learnany thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women tospeak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or cameit unto you only? 37 IF ANY MAN THINKHIMSELF TO BE A PROPHET, OR SPIRITUAL, LET HIM ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE THINGS THATI WRITE UNTO YOU ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. 38 But if any man beignorant, let him be ignorant.” - I Corinthians 12. God's New Testament commandments do not change;"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever."
Peter writes that, "Paul's letters contain some things that arehard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do theother SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction." - II Peter 3:15-16 Obeying God, as He's revealed Himself in HisScripture, is a matter of exactly that: obeying Him. Trying to convincethe disobedient of the validity and value of Scripture is like trying to arguetheology with the unsaved: obedience to God is simply a matter of the heart,not the mind. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." -John 14:15 "By this we know that we love the children of God, whenwe love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, thatwe keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome." I John5:3
So, in response to the question of whether a woman can be an elder in thechurch, the reply is in God's statement through Paul: "But I permit not awoman to teach, nor to have authority over the man, but to be in silence."I Timothy 2:12. The answer need not be complicated; it is givenhere. It's simply up to us to obey it. Whether it is or isn'tburdensome depends on whether we love God.
{While, in the absence of the appropriate person or specified gender, God willuse ANYONE in ANY position (God used the anti-Christ Caiaphas toprophecy the necessity of Christ's death for the salvation of all - John11:49 & 50) these special circumstances do NOT give everyone free licenseto assume any and all ministries and roles in any but extenuating circumstances).}
Broader than just certain individuals, God has given each GENDER its own rolesand responsibilities. God has specifically stated that MEN are to bethe leaders and teachers in the church, and to be those who speak out in theBody. I do not need to list these passages; they are available for thesincere to read. The challenge in all discussions such as this tends tobe in counteracting the heretical claims of the least obedient that somepassages in the Bible are not of God! As usual the disobedience of sometends to attempt the turning of the hearts of the obedient to unbelief anddisobedience, for the sake of justifying the sin of the disobedient. Just as, "Misery loves company," so, "Sin cravesthe support of others," as though truth can be established bydemocratic or mob rule.
God tells us, through Paul, "34 Let your women keep silence in thechurches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commandedto be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learnany thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women tospeak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or cameit unto you only? 37 IF ANY MAN THINKHIMSELF TO BE A PROPHET, OR SPIRITUAL, LET HIM ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE THINGS THATI WRITE UNTO YOU ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. 38 But if any man beignorant, let him be ignorant.” - I Corinthians 12. God's New Testament commandments do not change;"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever."
Peter writes that, "Paul's letters contain some things that arehard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do theother SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction." - II Peter 3:15-16 Obeying God, as He's revealed Himself in HisScripture, is a matter of exactly that: obeying Him. Trying to convincethe disobedient of the validity and value of Scripture is like trying to arguetheology with the unsaved: obedience to God is simply a matter of the heart,not the mind. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." -John 14:15 "By this we know that we love the children of God, whenwe love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, thatwe keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome." I John5:3
So, in response to the question of whether a woman can be an elder in thechurch, the reply is in God's statement through Paul: "But I permit not awoman to teach, nor to have authority over the man, but to be in silence."I Timothy 2:12. The answer need not be complicated; it is givenhere. It's simply up to us to obey it. Whether it is or isn'tburdensome depends on whether we love God.