Can anyone help me understand these verses?
- Thread starter RebeccaAutumn
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R
It plainly says holding fast to the word of the gospel:
"if you hold fast the word"
That's what it says. Nothing more, nothing less. And what does Paul say is true of the person who is presently holding fast the word of the gospel? He says they are saved (present tense). So, how do you get out of that that a person can NOT be holding fast the word of the gospel and be presently saved? If that's true it makes what he said pretty meaningless and unnecessary.
Supports what??????
"if you hold fast the word"
That's what it says. Nothing more, nothing less. And what does Paul say is true of the person who is presently holding fast the word of the gospel? He says they are saved (present tense). So, how do you get out of that that a person can NOT be holding fast the word of the gospel and be presently saved? If that's true it makes what he said pretty meaningless and unnecessary.
Supports what??????
R
You are the one who can't see the plain words of the passage. Why can't you see these plain words, "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you"? How in heaven and earth can that be understood as him "not talking about 'holding fast' to the gospel? I'm serious, you are the one missing it here.
U
Do you agree that....
which also you received and in which you stand,
They had "received" and "believed" the gospel that he had preached to them (the past tenses denote completed action) and they now "stand" in that gospel (the perfect tense denotes past action with continuing results). Their stand refers to their positional justification, which is unquestioned and was affirmed earlier: "you were justified" (1 Cor 6:11)
which also you received and in which you stand,
They had "received" and "believed" the gospel that he had preached to them (the past tenses denote completed action) and they now "stand" in that gospel (the perfect tense denotes past action with continuing results). Their stand refers to their positional justification, which is unquestioned and was affirmed earlier: "you were justified" (1 Cor 6:11)
R
I'm going to bed. I'll be back...right after this, lol.
I absolutely agree with that. Paul is affirming for us that the Corinthians did in fact believe his original gospel about a risen savior, but that that believing has been in vain if it turns out that Christ did not really rise from the dead.
With that said and agreed upon, how is it that you can say they will remain saved even if they don't hold fast the word of the gospel by which they were saved when Paul says they saved IF they hold onto the gospel by which they are saved?
I absolutely agree with that. Paul is affirming for us that the Corinthians did in fact believe his original gospel about a risen savior, but that that believing has been in vain if it turns out that Christ did not really rise from the dead.
With that said and agreed upon, how is it that you can say they will remain saved even if they don't hold fast the word of the gospel by which they were saved when Paul says they saved IF they hold onto the gospel by which they are saved?
U
Sorry missing some posts,
Yes I agree the word is the Gospel, however, holding fast to the Gospel is not to remain saved that is the piece you are missing.
The Church at Corinth was really struggling for various reasons, they were even beginning to question the resurrection and they were very carnal True?
Yes I agree the word is the Gospel, however, holding fast to the Gospel is not to remain saved that is the piece you are missing.
The Church at Corinth was really struggling for various reasons, they were even beginning to question the resurrection and they were very carnal True?
R
Don't miss it, UG: "you are saved if you hold fast the word which I preached to you". But you say there is no condition of any kind whatsoever to be presently saved. You say you can stop believing and you are (still) presently saved. That completely nullifies the condition for present believing that Paul lays down for being presently saved.
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U
Exactly, without the resurrection of the Lord Jesus there would be no salvation, without His resurrection, our believing would be in vain, empty, futile. Look what else would have happened, if Christ had not risen:
1 Cor 15:17-18
"And if Christ is not risen.......then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished."
To be cont'd
1 Cor 15:17-18
"And if Christ is not risen.......then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished."
To be cont'd
If I'm not mistaken, I believe your reference is to 2Cor13:5. If so, it seems you are uninformed of the context of Paul's words there:
"5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" [this is the esv, but nasb is similar]
One must view the overall CONTEXT which starts way back in chapter 10 (read AT LEAST these 3 chapters as a whole), and even the whole letter/epistle, which CONTEXT is: Paul vindicating his apostleship. He's not issuing a directive to all professing Christians of all times (as though this is something we all should be doing, and doing habitually).
He's saying (in the overall context), "y'all are wanting to judge ME and bringing me up SHORT. Judge yourselves, and if Christ is INDEED IN YOU [their internal response is expected to be, 'Of course! We are saved!'] then THAT IS THE PROOF: *YOU* [saved believers] are the PROOF of MY [genuine] APOSTLESHIP." Paul is not saying we should all be continually *TESTING* our genuineness [of faith]. That is to miss the point of the entire CONTEXT. They were tempted to be drawn away to follow other lofty-sounding dudes. [thus dissing Paul]
If that wasn't the Scripture reference you intended, my apologies. It very often is what people use, in the way you presently seem to be.
"5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" [this is the esv, but nasb is similar]
One must view the overall CONTEXT which starts way back in chapter 10 (read AT LEAST these 3 chapters as a whole), and even the whole letter/epistle, which CONTEXT is: Paul vindicating his apostleship. He's not issuing a directive to all professing Christians of all times (as though this is something we all should be doing, and doing habitually).
He's saying (in the overall context), "y'all are wanting to judge ME and bringing me up SHORT. Judge yourselves, and if Christ is INDEED IN YOU [their internal response is expected to be, 'Of course! We are saved!'] then THAT IS THE PROOF: *YOU* [saved believers] are the PROOF of MY [genuine] APOSTLESHIP." Paul is not saying we should all be continually *TESTING* our genuineness [of faith]. That is to miss the point of the entire CONTEXT. They were tempted to be drawn away to follow other lofty-sounding dudes. [thus dissing Paul]
If that wasn't the Scripture reference you intended, my apologies. It very often is what people use, in the way you presently seem to be.
R
Note that Paul is not saying anything different than what John said about this:
"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24
But Freegrace 'once saved always saved' doctrine says you will abide in the Son and the Father even if what you heard from the beginning doesn't abide in you. That's a complete contradiction of plain scripture.
You can not thrust the word of God behind you and still be saved:
9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."-2 John 1:9
And if you think this is not a salvation issue this same John says if you do not have Christ you do not have eternal life:
"he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."-1 John 5:12
"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24
But Freegrace 'once saved always saved' doctrine says you will abide in the Son and the Father even if what you heard from the beginning doesn't abide in you. That's a complete contradiction of plain scripture.
You can not thrust the word of God behind you and still be saved:
9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."-2 John 1:9
And if you think this is not a salvation issue this same John says if you do not have Christ you do not have eternal life:
"he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."-1 John 5:12
Face the facts dude.....the following is what you believe and it does no good to discuss scripture with one who embellishes, rejects, denies context, verb tense, scripture after scripture that testifies to the eternal security found in Christ, lie about what we actually say, accuse us of things we do not say, believe or imply etc....to push a false dogma that is not of God....end of story...
The following is what you believe and espouse and peddle....
dcontroversal said:
he rejects most truth in favor of Cainology and a wishy washy salvation that can be lost or revoked by a weak god that cannot keep his promises and or throws us away because we may fall and fail.....a god that needs our help to remain saved.......a god that fails in his misson!
The following is what you believe and espouse and peddle....
dcontroversal said:
he rejects most truth in favor of Cainology and a wishy washy salvation that can be lost or revoked by a weak god that cannot keep his promises and or throws us away because we may fall and fail.....a god that needs our help to remain saved.......a god that fails in his misson!