Can We Eliminate the Divide Between Calvinism and Arminianism?

[preacher4truth]

That is so sad....I wonder if they are listening to Andy Stanley or Roger Olson? Many bad teachings that try and stand against the historic faith but cannot. Thanks for warning me of these pernicious errors so I will be ready to fend off such God-dishonoring views

Perhaps you can help him see the truth. I hope so. He's very opposed to the truth of the Gospel.

 

[Iconoclast]

Absolutely. And that is 1647.

CHAPTER III
Of God's Eternal Decree

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished...

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

Notice the word predestined is there for elect men and elect angels. It is not there speaking of the reprobates, however.

God has ORDAINED that all the wicked that are found outside of Christ at the White Throne Judgment.......that is two different things that you wrongly attempt to conflate. Do you understand that predestination is used positively for the sanctification of the elect.

 

[xjohnson]

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Let’s take the entire statement from Romans 9:15-18:

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. So, then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.​

After reading the above, doesn’t it naturally follow that you would ask: upon whom has God chosen to give mercy, and who has God chosen to harden? Why is it that I don’t find people asking this question? If God said, “I will give a million dollars to whomever I will”, then won’t people be asking the question: “to whom will God give a million dollars”?

Upon whom did God choose to give mercy? The answer is found in the very same letter in Romans 11:30-32:

For as you [Gentiles] were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their [Jews'] disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.​

The Gentiles obtained mercy. Mercy was shown to the Gentiles. Apparently, God willed to show mercy to the Gentiles.

Who did God choose to harden? The answer to this question is found in Romans 11:7:

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.​

The vast majority of Jews were blinded to the Gospel - hardened, if you will. Apparently, God willed to harden the Jews.

What errors do you find in the approach I have taken here? Thanks.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The vast majority of Jews were blinded to the Gospel - hardened, if you will. Apparently, God willed to harden the Jews.

And that is only because the unbelieving Jews themselves FIRST hardened their hearts.God does not arbitrarily harden hearts. In fact quite the opposite. God pleads with sinners to NOT harden their hearts.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Notice the word predestined is there for elect men and elect angels. It is not there speaking of the reprobates, however.

And you should know (as well as anyone else) that that was A DODGE. So they used the word "fore-ordained", but as far as Calvinists are concerned there is no difference between predestined and foreordained. Honesty should have required the same word in both cases. But then Reformed Theology would have to admit that God arbitrarily chooses some for salvation and others for damnation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You don't understand the passages you allude to.

That's the typical Calvinist response when they know that their teachings are false and unbiblical and have been exposed as such.

"You don't understand" is actually a Gnostic attitude, since only the Gnostics had deeper, *esoteric* knowledge about what was *hidden* in Scripture.

 

[John146]

Let’s take the entire statement from Romans 9:15-18:

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. So, then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.​

After reading the above, doesn’t it naturally follow that you would ask: upon whom has God chosen to give mercy, and who has God chosen to harden? Why is it that I don’t find people asking this question? If God said, “I will give a million dollars to whomever I will”, then won’t people be asking the question: “to whom will God give a million dollars”?

Upon whom did God choose to give mercy? The answer is found in the very same letter in Romans 11:30-32:

For as you [Gentiles] were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their [Jews'] disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.​

The Gentiles obtained mercy. Mercy was shown to the Gentiles. Apparently, God willed to show mercy to the Gentiles.

Who did God choose to harden? The answer to this question is found in Romans 11:7:

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.​

The vast majority of Jews were blinded to the Gospel - hardened, if you will. Apparently, God willed to harden the Jews.

What errors do you find in the approach I have taken here? Thanks.

And if one is going to receive mercy, he’s got to do it God’s way and that’s through Jesus Christ. Man can’t will it any other way.

 

[Grandpa]

Let’s take the entire statement from Romans 9:15-18:

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. So, then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.​

After reading the above, doesn’t it naturally follow that you would ask: upon whom has God chosen to give mercy, and who has God chosen to harden? Why is it that I don’t find people asking this question? If God said, “I will give a million dollars to whomever I will”, then won’t people be asking the question: “to whom will God give a million dollars”?

Upon whom did God choose to give mercy? The answer is found in the very same letter in Romans 11:30-32:

For as you [Gentiles] were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their [Jews'] disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.​

The Gentiles obtained mercy. Mercy was shown to the Gentiles. Apparently, God willed to show mercy to the Gentiles.

Who did God choose to harden? The answer to this question is found in Romans 11:7:

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.​

The vast majority of Jews were blinded to the Gospel - hardened, if you will. Apparently, God willed to harden the Jews.

What errors do you find in the approach I have taken here? Thanks.

The error is in attempting to separate Israel into Jews and Gentiles.

The error is in thinking that the Lord Jesus Christ was plan B and He was a failed plan for the Jews.

The error is in thinking that the elect applies only to the Jews of physical Israel.

Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:6-7
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

 

[Adstar]

Let’s take the entire statement from Romans 9:15-18:

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. So, then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.​

After reading the above, doesn’t it naturally follow that you would ask: upon whom has God chosen to give mercy, and who has God chosen to harden? Why is it that I don’t find people asking this question? If God said, “I will give a million dollars to whomever I will”, then won’t people be asking the question: “to whom will God give a million dollars”?

Upon whom did God choose to give mercy? The answer is found in the very same letter in Romans 11:30-32:

For as you [Gentiles] were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their [Jews'] disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.​

The Gentiles obtained mercy. Mercy was shown to the Gentiles. Apparently, God willed to show mercy to the Gentiles.

Who did God choose to harden? The answer to this question is found in Romans 11:7:

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.​

The vast majority of Jews were blinded to the Gospel - hardened, if you will. Apparently, God willed to harden the Jews.

What errors do you find in the approach I have taken here? Thanks.

calvinists seem to assume that God hardens some for no real reason and saves others for no real reason..

But the Bible time and time again says that God hardens and gives over to delusion those who hate the Love of the truth and love evil....

So yes God will have mercy upon whom so ever He will have mercy and He will harden those He wills to harden .. But He has reason for doing this.. He is not up their spinning a coin,, Heads I will save him tails he goes to hell..

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

 

[Grandpa]

calvinists seem to assume that God hardens some for no real reason and saves others for no real reason..

But the Bible time and time again says that God hardens and gives over to delusion those who hate the Love of the truth and love evil....

So yes God will have mercy upon whom so ever He will have mercy and He will harden those He wills to harden .. But He has reason for doing this.. He is not up their spinning a coin,, Heads I will save him tails he goes to hell..

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

I don't remember any Calvinist ever saying this.

Perhaps your understanding of Calvinism is flawed?

Or maybe it is just your general understanding of the Bible. That seems more likely.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let’s take the entire statement from Romans 9:15-18:

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. So, then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.​

After reading the above, doesn’t it naturally follow that you would ask: upon whom has God chosen to give mercy, and who has God chosen to harden? Why is it that I don’t find people asking this question? If God said, “I will give a million dollars to whomever I will”, then won’t people be asking the question: “to whom will God give a million dollars”?

Upon whom did God choose to give mercy? The answer is found in the very same letter in Romans 11:30-32:

For as you [Gentiles] were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their [Jews'] disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.​

The Gentiles obtained mercy. Mercy was shown to the Gentiles. Apparently, God willed to show mercy to the Gentiles.

Who did God choose to harden? The answer to this question is found in Romans 11:7:

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.​

The vast majority of Jews were blinded to the Gospel - hardened, if you will. Apparently, God willed to harden the Jews.

What errors do you find in the approach I have taken here? Thanks.

Look up the OT quotes. And take them in context with the OT author.

Thats the only way to understand what Paul was trying to say. He spoke to people who would have imediately recognized the OT quotes and would have known in context what Paul was tryign to say.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

calvinists seem to assume that God hardens some for no real reason and saves others for no real reason..

But the Bible time and time again says that God hardens and gives over to delusion those who hate the Love of the truth and love evil....

So yes God will have mercy upon whom so ever He will have mercy and He will harden those He wills to harden .. But He has reason for doing this.. He is not up their spinning a coin,, Heads I will save him tails he goes to hell..

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Your first statement is not true. Before you start attacking a group, at least find out what they actually believe.

 

[Adstar]

Your first statement is not true. Before you start attacking a group, at least find out what they actually believe.

Read my statements clearly before reacting with emotion.. I put the word ""seem"" in that statement for a reason..

Your response should have been a statement as to why calvinisim believes some are saved and some are not..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read my statements clearly before reacting with emotion.. I put the word ""seem"" in that statement for a reason..

Your response should have been a statement as to why calvinisim believes some are saved and some are not..

1. I am not a calvinist
2. It does not matter if you said seem, You insinuated somethign that is not true, If you KNEW what they believed, You would not need to say seem, The fact you said seemproves you are not even sure yourself what they believe. Yet you attack them?

 

[Adstar]

1. I am not a calvinist
2. It does not matter if you said seem, You insinuated somethign that is not true, If you KNEW what they believed, You would not need to say seem, The fact you said seemproves you are not even sure yourself what they believe. Yet you attack them?

The why are you answering me and if you are not a calvinist?

Let the calvinists respond if they wish..

And i Hate calvinism.. Yes indeed i do.. But that does not mean i hate calvinists..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The why are you answering me and if you are not a calvinist?

Let the calvinists respond if they wish..

And i Hate calvinism.. Yes indeed i do.. But that does not mean i hate calvinists..

Because you made a false statement, It should not matter who you are. When you see someone make a false statement you should speak out..

 

[Adstar]

Because you made a false statement, It should not matter who you are. When you see someone make a false statement you should speak out..

Once again i have to say i included seems in my statement.. You cannot have it both ways.. Saying i made a definitive statement and when i point out the word seems then you change tack and say i do not know.. And then swing back to make again the statement that i made a definitive statement.. All the while responding as a non-calvinist and thus you do not know what stance the calvinists have on the issue..

Amazing.. Why are you trying to throw a spanner in the discussion? If you are not a Calvinist or an anti-calvinist what are you doing injecting nothing but disruption into this discussion?

 

[NayborBear]

The why are you answering me and if you are not a calvinist?

Let the calvinists respond if they wish..

And i Hate calvinism.. Yes indeed i do.. But that does not mean i hate calvinists..

Perhaps it is what men and their traditions did to Calvinism?

Much like what men and their traditions did to "Churchianity?"

 

[GodsGrace101]

Notice the word predestined is there for elect men and elect angels. It is not there speaking of the reprobates, however.

God has ORDAINED that all the wicked that are found outside of Christ at the White Throne Judgment.......that is two different things that you wrongly attempt to conflate. Do you understand that predestination is used positively for the sanctification of the elect.

Predestination is used positively for the sanctification of the elect.
Sounds good.
Now, what about the other poor blokes who were NOT elected?
Are they the reprobates?
What happens to them?
WHY are they found outside Christ?

 

[GodsGrace101]

The why are you answering me and if you are not a calvinist?

Let the calvinists respond if they wish..

And i Hate calvinism.. Yes indeed i do.. But that does not mean i hate calvinists..

I don't hate calvinists either.
But I do have to wonder if they read the N.T. or if they just listen to the sermons at their church.
If they read the N.T.,,,they'd know the true nature of God.